Web.config
- Thread starter bungpeng
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Derek Stone
Exalted One
Frames are a poor design choice, especially when using ASP.NET. Id strongly suggest doing without them.
wyrd
Well-known member
Frames are bulky, clunky, and get in the way of the content that is on your site. Not to mention it just doesnt look good. There simply is no advantage to using frames, because anything you can do with a frame can be done without a frame while still maintaining the the elegance and beauty of your site. Although, despite all this, there is still a rare situation where you could get away with frames.
Im sure theres a way to get around your frame problem, although I dont know off hand what it is. Even if theres not, whether frames are or arent a bad design decision has no bearing on ASP.NET. Since the day I started doing web design (some 5 odd years ago) its always been a bad design decision.
... and just because some big corporation uses frames, doesnt automatically make it a good design choice (I assume youre talking about the MSDN library). Although, if you were to use frames, Microsoft has given a good example on how to use them correctly (go look at Suns Java API site for what NOT to do).
Im sure theres a way to get around your frame problem, although I dont know off hand what it is. Even if theres not, whether frames are or arent a bad design decision has no bearing on ASP.NET. Since the day I started doing web design (some 5 odd years ago) its always been a bad design decision.
... and just because some big corporation uses frames, doesnt automatically make it a good design choice (I assume youre talking about the MSDN library). Although, if you were to use frames, Microsoft has given a good example on how to use them correctly (go look at Suns Java API site for what NOT to do).
Yes, I am talking about MSDN. As what you said: anything we can do with a frame can be done without a frame while still maintaining the elegance and beauty of our site. Then what is your comment about MSDN using frame?
Do you think this is bad design and MSDN should change to NO FRAME? The main advantage of frame in MSDN is because the MSDN frame need heavy loading.
Currently if you read a first page in MSDN, you need to wait (both menu and page loading), but for second page, you just need to load that page. If you suggest MSDN to remove the frame, then every time we need to load both of them, it is definitely impossible because it is too heavy task.
This is the same purpose of using Frame in my web application, I want to avoid the redundant heavy loading in my web application. SPEED is one of the most important issue in WWW.
Do you think this is bad design and MSDN should change to NO FRAME? The main advantage of frame in MSDN is because the MSDN frame need heavy loading.
Currently if you read a first page in MSDN, you need to wait (both menu and page loading), but for second page, you just need to load that page. If you suggest MSDN to remove the frame, then every time we need to load both of them, it is definitely impossible because it is too heavy task.
This is the same purpose of using Frame in my web application, I want to avoid the redundant heavy loading in my web application. SPEED is one of the most important issue in WWW.
wyrd
Well-known member
If you noticed, I also said.. Although, despite all this, there is still a rare situation where you could get away with frames. .. and also Although, if you were to use frames, Microsoft has given a good example on how to use them correctly
Even still, I stand by what I said in that what you can do with frames, you can do without and still maintain good web design.
Even still, I stand by what I said in that what you can do with frames, you can do without and still maintain good web design.
Sorry about that...
Actually I know there are some disadvantages of Frame, Since I involving in web development for some years and I did read some articles about the Frame. I agree with their points.
But I totally disagree with Derek Stone wth his comment: Frames are a poor design choice, especially when using ASP.NET. Id strongly suggest doing without them.
Because frame also got its advantages.
There are many way to program, but we need to find a better and efficient way. Everything got its advantages and disadvantages, if Frame are really poor design choice, then I think it will be remove from HTML tag or it is never been there.
Actually I know there are some disadvantages of Frame, Since I involving in web development for some years and I did read some articles about the Frame. I agree with their points.
But I totally disagree with Derek Stone wth his comment: Frames are a poor design choice, especially when using ASP.NET. Id strongly suggest doing without them.
Because frame also got its advantages.
There are many way to program, but we need to find a better and efficient way. Everything got its advantages and disadvantages, if Frame are really poor design choice, then I think it will be remove from HTML tag or it is never been there.
wyrd
Well-known member
Just because frames are considered bad design doesnt mean that they should be ripped out of the HTML language...
I think youre blowing our comments way out of proportion.
I think youre blowing our comments way out of proportion.
Derek Stone
Exalted One
Wyrd and I have expressed industry feelings (not ours) about the use of frames. You can take our advice or not, but we are correct. Additionally, as I stated above, ASP.NET does not handle frames well. This is fact. Were just stating how it is. We are not trying to argue with you or invalidate your design decisions.
If you do choose to use frames then good luck, but dont expect easy or reliable results.
If you do choose to use frames then good luck, but dont expect easy or reliable results.
wyrd
Well-known member
Im probably at fault for starting this minor little argument (as I usually am with anything these days).. my comments werent ment to be argumentative, I was simply trying to answer the question "May I know why Frame if poor design for you?" to the best of my knowledge.
With that aside, it doesnt sound like anyone knows off hand the solution to the problem given. Since frames are being used because of large amounts of information needed to be loaded on the menu, have you considered using Caching? I imagine the load time is due to database retrieval to load the menu, and in that case the database information is probably rarely changed. My point is, you can Cache that part of your site in the servers memory so you dont have to keep retrieving the data, and whenever a user accesses your site, the HTML is already built and ready to go.
I dont know exactly what the load time is from, so take my 2 cents for what theyre worth on a frameless solution.
With that aside, it doesnt sound like anyone knows off hand the solution to the problem given. Since frames are being used because of large amounts of information needed to be loaded on the menu, have you considered using Caching? I imagine the load time is due to database retrieval to load the menu, and in that case the database information is probably rarely changed. My point is, you can Cache that part of your site in the servers memory so you dont have to keep retrieving the data, and whenever a user accesses your site, the HTML is already built and ready to go.
I dont know exactly what the load time is from, so take my 2 cents for what theyre worth on a frameless solution.
Derek Stone, dont assume I am new in this industry, I also heard a lot about frame, but most of them are advise us to avoid using frame in most of the cases, not "poor design choice...strongly suggest doing without them".
Go back to my question, I know ASP.NET cant handle frame because it is server site language, and javascript can easily handle frame because it runs at client site.
In normal cases, I can use ASP.NET to return javascript function to client site to handle frame. But in this case is in Web.config file, I cant do it in normal way, so just want to find out, is there any similar way I can do it to handle frame?
Go back to my question, I know ASP.NET cant handle frame because it is server site language, and javascript can easily handle frame because it runs at client site.
In normal cases, I can use ASP.NET to return javascript function to client site to handle frame. But in this case is in Web.config file, I cant do it in normal way, so just want to find out, is there any similar way I can do it to handle frame?
Derek Stone, I feel a little not happy with you because I ask you a question, and you never answer my question but just return answer "Frames are a poor design choice, especially when using ASP.NET. Id strongly suggest doing without them"...
Sorry if I make you not happy too...
hope we can still share idea in this forum
Sorry if I make you not happy too...
hope we can still share idea in this forum
wyrd
Well-known member
I think that was his answer to your question.. dont use frames with ASP.NET. 
Im not saying whether his answer is the only solution, or whether it was ment rudely or nicely, or wrong or right, but it was his solution to your particular problem.
If you dont like his solution, dont use it. See if you can find a better solution (or wait until someone else has a better idea, which unfortunately doesnt seem likely at this point) and then come back here and let us know what it was, so we can share that knowledge to someone who asks a similar question in the future.
Im not saying whether his answer is the only solution, or whether it was ment rudely or nicely, or wrong or right, but it was his solution to your particular problem.If you dont like his solution, dont use it. See if you can find a better solution (or wait until someone else has a better idea, which unfortunately doesnt seem likely at this point) and then come back here and let us know what it was, so we can share that knowledge to someone who asks a similar question in the future.