G
georget@unlisted.com
Guest
Re: What the F**k happened?
On Mon, 17 Dec 2007 18:30:03 -0500, kony <spam@spam.com> wrote:
>On Sun, 16 Dec 2007 20:17:24 -0600, georget@unlisted.com
>wrote:
>
>
>>First, thanks for the reply. I know this was a long message, but I
>>had to explain the whole thing.
>>
>>To answer your questions. What I changed on this computer are as
>>follows.
>>
>>I. The computer came with Win2K installed on a 10 gig drive. I
>>replaced that drive with TWO 20 gig hard drives, and installed Win98.
>>(Win98 is all I will use, I cant stand anything newer than ME, and
>>would use WinME but I heard too many stories about problems with it)
>
>yes WinME has some problems but it is largely in features it
>adds to Win98, features that can be disabled. Regardless,
>using win98 would not cause the problem, and is a reasonable
>choice for someone needing DOS support.
>
>
>>
>>2. I added another 256meg ram stick. It came with 128megs Now i have
>>both.
>
>It would be good to run memtest86+ for several hours, even
>overnight or longer to see if you have low rate memory
>errors.
>
>>
>>3. I added a USB 2.0 card.
>
>What chipset does the motherboard use? If a (certain models
>of) via chipset, this added device on the PCI bus could be a
>cause of data corruption.
>
>
>>
>>4. I removed the internal CD drive, and replaced it with an external
>>USB CD burner
>
>Personally, I would pull the burner out of the external
>enclosure and put it in the system. It will be faster and
>much lower overhead in use. If you do that, just make sure
>to go into Device Manager's properties for the drive and set
>it to use DMA.
>
>
>>
>>Otherwise it's the same.....
>>
>>You asked about the hardware.....
>>The computer is an IBM Netvista 6341
>>
>>I copied the following from Norton System info.
>>*Bios IBM 03/17/05
>>*Processor GenuineIntel Family 6 Model 8 1002
>>*Video 800x600 in True Color, Intel(R) 82810E Graphics Controller Ver.
>>4.0
>>*Memory 382 MB
>>*Bus Type PCI
>>*Hard Drives 19.14 GB, 18.65 GB
>
>Ok, it's an Intel 810 chipset based board, does not have a
>Via chipset. PCI throughput shouldn't be a problem with a
>mere USB2 card added, but I would wonder if changing the PCI
>card's slot might help.
>
>That wouldn't account for all the issues you're seeing, but
>I now wonder if you have more than one problem... and there
>has been more than one thing changed. I would definitely
>run memtest86+ for several hours before doing anything else
>to be sure the memory is at least reasonably stable.
>
>
>>What I did so far.......
>>I copied all partitions into separate directories on a 3rd (spare) 20
>>gig drive, so I have a complete backup.
>
>Ok, but until you have ran memtest86+ for many hours without
>any errors, be very cautious about depending on this backup,
>since as you have already noted the Agent file was different
>so something may be preventing data integrity.
>
>>
>>Reset bios to default, and disabled all Power Savers and screen
>>savers.
>>
>>I pushed all internal cables and memory to be sure they were plugged
>>in well. I removed some dust at the same time. I also pushed all
>>external cables to check they were tight.
>
>Also inspect motherboard capacitors, and if you had a spare
>power supply it would be something else to try... it seems
>less likely than other suspects but when a system gets older
>it is hard to play odds anymore, many things taken for
>granted with a newer system may need checked.
>
>
>>
>>Ran Ad-Aware, AVG Free, and Spybot. No viruses found, except one zip
>>file which I downloaded recently (and did not open) contained spyware.
>>I deleted it.
>>
>>I ran RegSeeker and cleaned the Registry
>
>Usually, registry cleaners are unnecessary and rarely they
>can do more harm than good. If all else fails, try a clean
>installation of Win98.
>
>
>>I ran Defrag and defragged C: and F: (the others were ok)
>
>You should not defrag any drives until you know if your
>memory subsystem is stable! If you have memory errors you
>may have now corrupted many many files.
>
>>
>>----
>>Now for a few more questions.
>>
>>1. How do I do CRC checks?
>
>One way is a shell extension, where you right-click the file
>and it shows the CRC value. Frankly I can't remember which
>software supports win98 so it may be more time consuming to
>find some utilities or plugins to do it.
>
>I hope the following is what I'm thinking of, as I
>downloaded it many years ago not recently.
>
>http://www.freewareweb.com/cgi-bin/archive.cgi?ID=629
>
>Yes, after checking the contents of the file it will do the
>job, but I think it may not support files over some size
>(maybe 2GB?)
>
>There was such an explosion of freeware software in the past
>few years, there is probably something very nice where you
>can point the software to two directories of files and have
>it recursively check all of the files instead of doing each
>one manually. Here's one that seems to do that, has a
>free 30 day trial. I'm sure a Google search will turn up
>more options, I can't recall the name of the one I was using
>on win98.
>
>http://www.tgrmn.com/index.htm
>
>
>>
>>2. Where do I get memtest86+?
>>
>http://www.memtest.org/
>
>
>
>>3. If I do have a failing hard drive, which one would it be?
>>The problem partition is F: which is on my SECOND drive.
>>Yet, when the computer would not boot, the boot partition is C: on my
>>FIRST drive?
>
>
>A failing drive can cause the system to not boot a different
>connected drive.
>
>Unplug the questionable drive, rejumper the other drive for
>master/slave IF needed, then see if the bootable drive
>boots.
>
>If it still does not, run the hard drive manufacturer's
>utilities, but first I would do two things:
>
>1) Run memtest86+ to see if memory is ok, with the hard
>drives unplugged from power and data cables. If there are
>errors, AND since you might have a failing drive, I would do
>the most expedient thing next - remove the new memory module
>then retest with memtest86+, still having no hard drives
>running.
>
>2) If it then passes memtest86+, connect the drives and
>proceed to copy off any important data before stressing the
>drives further by running the HDD manufacturer's
>diagnostics. The most conservative suggestion is to do
>these two things before running the system in windows to do
>anything else, including not running the CRC checks yet.
>"Maybe" your drive isn't failing and this is just a waste of
>time - but if the drive is failing it might be important.
>
>
>
>
>>
>>----
>>I'm seriously thinking about the cable after reading your reply. That
>>is the one common link to BOTH drives. Of course there's the
>>harddrive controller, but thats part of the motherboard.
>
>Hard drive controllers don't generally fail, but you might
>consider using a 2nd cable to connect one or the other of
>the drives, then jumpering each to master (or single, for
>some IBM or WD drives as noted on their labels). Using a
>separate cable per drive should improve performance copying
>back and forth between them.
>
>However, while a bad cable might prevent initial detection
>or booting from the drive, it should not cause corrupt data
>later as these 20GB drives would have checksums for data
>sent through the cable, if the data were corrupted I would
>think it most likey due to memory errors, or possibly some
>lost sectors since these are now fairly old drives.
>
>On that topic, the drives are at the end of their expected
>lifespan. While you have gotten a lot of miles out of that
>Win98 system, it might be time to consider some changes. If
>you must still use Win98, I would at least consider getting
>a new 120GB hard drive to replace one of these old, much
>slower drives.
Hey Kony
I got the Western Digital diagnostics for the questionable drive.
(partition F)
It tested fine. I ran it 3 times.
As far as my boot drive, Its a Quantum Fireball 20g. Quantum no
longer exists. Maxtor bought them, then Seagate bought Maxtor, so
where I'd find a factory disgnostic for that one, seems near
impossible, unless someone happens to have saved it on disk and could
upload it.
Then I got memtest86+
How the f**k do I run that thing?
It seems like something only a guy with a 4 year college degree in
computers could understand. Their website is not very useful either.
Seems all they do is advertise to sell their CD.
Yes, I made the floppy and rebooted, that was easy.
After that, I have no clue what to select and can not tell what is
being tested when.
I let it just start on it's own and run. I almost immediately get
errors, and after several runs, I always get about 20 to 23 of them
showing. However, I think it;s testing the cache, not the ram.
This might be a good tester, but it's surely not user friendly.
I hit the "C" for options, I have no clue which tests to select.
I am no expert, but I am faurly knowledgable about computers. This
software has me lost.
I removed all but one ram strip. I got those same errors.
Then I swapped to my other strip, and got the same errors.
Then I removed both of them and installed a smaller one from my parts
box, and got the same errors.
I'm sort of thinking it's testing the cache, not the actual ram. I
finally selected test 3. Assuming option 1 was L1 cache
option 2 was L2 cache, and option 3 was the ram. In all honesty, I
have no clue whats running or doing what, except option 3 took forever
to run and I had to cancel so I could use the computer. I'll have to
run that during the night. But in the end I still wont know what was
tested or what is in error.
I wrote doen the following.
L1 cache 32K
L2 cache 128K
Memory 128 meg (or whatever ram I have plugged in).
It shows the computer as Celeron 1002mhz
Chipset Intel i810e
This is Memtest86+ v1.70
All I can assume is the first test is the L1 cache, which seems to be
where it gets the errors almost immediately. Where the heck is L1
cache memory plugged in? I dont see any other removable ram.
Then again, in all honesty, I dont have the slightest clue what this
softwware is doing, so it's useless to me. Whatever is in error, I
have no clue. No matter what ram strips I use, I get the same errors,
and I am sure they are not all bad.
Right now I am running windows on one 64meg strip, since it's the last
one I plugged in. It seems like its easier to just replace the ram
than run tests that dont tell me anything useful.
Isnt these some easier to use memory testing software, that gives the
results in plain and understandable english?
Thanks
George
On Mon, 17 Dec 2007 18:30:03 -0500, kony <spam@spam.com> wrote:
>On Sun, 16 Dec 2007 20:17:24 -0600, georget@unlisted.com
>wrote:
>
>
>>First, thanks for the reply. I know this was a long message, but I
>>had to explain the whole thing.
>>
>>To answer your questions. What I changed on this computer are as
>>follows.
>>
>>I. The computer came with Win2K installed on a 10 gig drive. I
>>replaced that drive with TWO 20 gig hard drives, and installed Win98.
>>(Win98 is all I will use, I cant stand anything newer than ME, and
>>would use WinME but I heard too many stories about problems with it)
>
>yes WinME has some problems but it is largely in features it
>adds to Win98, features that can be disabled. Regardless,
>using win98 would not cause the problem, and is a reasonable
>choice for someone needing DOS support.
>
>
>>
>>2. I added another 256meg ram stick. It came with 128megs Now i have
>>both.
>
>It would be good to run memtest86+ for several hours, even
>overnight or longer to see if you have low rate memory
>errors.
>
>>
>>3. I added a USB 2.0 card.
>
>What chipset does the motherboard use? If a (certain models
>of) via chipset, this added device on the PCI bus could be a
>cause of data corruption.
>
>
>>
>>4. I removed the internal CD drive, and replaced it with an external
>>USB CD burner
>
>Personally, I would pull the burner out of the external
>enclosure and put it in the system. It will be faster and
>much lower overhead in use. If you do that, just make sure
>to go into Device Manager's properties for the drive and set
>it to use DMA.
>
>
>>
>>Otherwise it's the same.....
>>
>>You asked about the hardware.....
>>The computer is an IBM Netvista 6341
>>
>>I copied the following from Norton System info.
>>*Bios IBM 03/17/05
>>*Processor GenuineIntel Family 6 Model 8 1002
>>*Video 800x600 in True Color, Intel(R) 82810E Graphics Controller Ver.
>>4.0
>>*Memory 382 MB
>>*Bus Type PCI
>>*Hard Drives 19.14 GB, 18.65 GB
>
>Ok, it's an Intel 810 chipset based board, does not have a
>Via chipset. PCI throughput shouldn't be a problem with a
>mere USB2 card added, but I would wonder if changing the PCI
>card's slot might help.
>
>That wouldn't account for all the issues you're seeing, but
>I now wonder if you have more than one problem... and there
>has been more than one thing changed. I would definitely
>run memtest86+ for several hours before doing anything else
>to be sure the memory is at least reasonably stable.
>
>
>>What I did so far.......
>>I copied all partitions into separate directories on a 3rd (spare) 20
>>gig drive, so I have a complete backup.
>
>Ok, but until you have ran memtest86+ for many hours without
>any errors, be very cautious about depending on this backup,
>since as you have already noted the Agent file was different
>so something may be preventing data integrity.
>
>>
>>Reset bios to default, and disabled all Power Savers and screen
>>savers.
>>
>>I pushed all internal cables and memory to be sure they were plugged
>>in well. I removed some dust at the same time. I also pushed all
>>external cables to check they were tight.
>
>Also inspect motherboard capacitors, and if you had a spare
>power supply it would be something else to try... it seems
>less likely than other suspects but when a system gets older
>it is hard to play odds anymore, many things taken for
>granted with a newer system may need checked.
>
>
>>
>>Ran Ad-Aware, AVG Free, and Spybot. No viruses found, except one zip
>>file which I downloaded recently (and did not open) contained spyware.
>>I deleted it.
>>
>>I ran RegSeeker and cleaned the Registry
>
>Usually, registry cleaners are unnecessary and rarely they
>can do more harm than good. If all else fails, try a clean
>installation of Win98.
>
>
>>I ran Defrag and defragged C: and F: (the others were ok)
>
>You should not defrag any drives until you know if your
>memory subsystem is stable! If you have memory errors you
>may have now corrupted many many files.
>
>>
>>----
>>Now for a few more questions.
>>
>>1. How do I do CRC checks?
>
>One way is a shell extension, where you right-click the file
>and it shows the CRC value. Frankly I can't remember which
>software supports win98 so it may be more time consuming to
>find some utilities or plugins to do it.
>
>I hope the following is what I'm thinking of, as I
>downloaded it many years ago not recently.
>
>http://www.freewareweb.com/cgi-bin/archive.cgi?ID=629
>
>Yes, after checking the contents of the file it will do the
>job, but I think it may not support files over some size
>(maybe 2GB?)
>
>There was such an explosion of freeware software in the past
>few years, there is probably something very nice where you
>can point the software to two directories of files and have
>it recursively check all of the files instead of doing each
>one manually. Here's one that seems to do that, has a
>free 30 day trial. I'm sure a Google search will turn up
>more options, I can't recall the name of the one I was using
>on win98.
>
>http://www.tgrmn.com/index.htm
>
>
>>
>>2. Where do I get memtest86+?
>>
>http://www.memtest.org/
>
>
>
>>3. If I do have a failing hard drive, which one would it be?
>>The problem partition is F: which is on my SECOND drive.
>>Yet, when the computer would not boot, the boot partition is C: on my
>>FIRST drive?
>
>
>A failing drive can cause the system to not boot a different
>connected drive.
>
>Unplug the questionable drive, rejumper the other drive for
>master/slave IF needed, then see if the bootable drive
>boots.
>
>If it still does not, run the hard drive manufacturer's
>utilities, but first I would do two things:
>
>1) Run memtest86+ to see if memory is ok, with the hard
>drives unplugged from power and data cables. If there are
>errors, AND since you might have a failing drive, I would do
>the most expedient thing next - remove the new memory module
>then retest with memtest86+, still having no hard drives
>running.
>
>2) If it then passes memtest86+, connect the drives and
>proceed to copy off any important data before stressing the
>drives further by running the HDD manufacturer's
>diagnostics. The most conservative suggestion is to do
>these two things before running the system in windows to do
>anything else, including not running the CRC checks yet.
>"Maybe" your drive isn't failing and this is just a waste of
>time - but if the drive is failing it might be important.
>
>
>
>
>>
>>----
>>I'm seriously thinking about the cable after reading your reply. That
>>is the one common link to BOTH drives. Of course there's the
>>harddrive controller, but thats part of the motherboard.
>
>Hard drive controllers don't generally fail, but you might
>consider using a 2nd cable to connect one or the other of
>the drives, then jumpering each to master (or single, for
>some IBM or WD drives as noted on their labels). Using a
>separate cable per drive should improve performance copying
>back and forth between them.
>
>However, while a bad cable might prevent initial detection
>or booting from the drive, it should not cause corrupt data
>later as these 20GB drives would have checksums for data
>sent through the cable, if the data were corrupted I would
>think it most likey due to memory errors, or possibly some
>lost sectors since these are now fairly old drives.
>
>On that topic, the drives are at the end of their expected
>lifespan. While you have gotten a lot of miles out of that
>Win98 system, it might be time to consider some changes. If
>you must still use Win98, I would at least consider getting
>a new 120GB hard drive to replace one of these old, much
>slower drives.
Hey Kony
I got the Western Digital diagnostics for the questionable drive.
(partition F)
It tested fine. I ran it 3 times.
As far as my boot drive, Its a Quantum Fireball 20g. Quantum no
longer exists. Maxtor bought them, then Seagate bought Maxtor, so
where I'd find a factory disgnostic for that one, seems near
impossible, unless someone happens to have saved it on disk and could
upload it.
Then I got memtest86+
How the f**k do I run that thing?
It seems like something only a guy with a 4 year college degree in
computers could understand. Their website is not very useful either.
Seems all they do is advertise to sell their CD.
Yes, I made the floppy and rebooted, that was easy.
After that, I have no clue what to select and can not tell what is
being tested when.
I let it just start on it's own and run. I almost immediately get
errors, and after several runs, I always get about 20 to 23 of them
showing. However, I think it;s testing the cache, not the ram.
This might be a good tester, but it's surely not user friendly.
I hit the "C" for options, I have no clue which tests to select.
I am no expert, but I am faurly knowledgable about computers. This
software has me lost.
I removed all but one ram strip. I got those same errors.
Then I swapped to my other strip, and got the same errors.
Then I removed both of them and installed a smaller one from my parts
box, and got the same errors.
I'm sort of thinking it's testing the cache, not the actual ram. I
finally selected test 3. Assuming option 1 was L1 cache
option 2 was L2 cache, and option 3 was the ram. In all honesty, I
have no clue whats running or doing what, except option 3 took forever
to run and I had to cancel so I could use the computer. I'll have to
run that during the night. But in the end I still wont know what was
tested or what is in error.
I wrote doen the following.
L1 cache 32K
L2 cache 128K
Memory 128 meg (or whatever ram I have plugged in).
It shows the computer as Celeron 1002mhz
Chipset Intel i810e
This is Memtest86+ v1.70
All I can assume is the first test is the L1 cache, which seems to be
where it gets the errors almost immediately. Where the heck is L1
cache memory plugged in? I dont see any other removable ram.
Then again, in all honesty, I dont have the slightest clue what this
softwware is doing, so it's useless to me. Whatever is in error, I
have no clue. No matter what ram strips I use, I get the same errors,
and I am sure they are not all bad.
Right now I am running windows on one 64meg strip, since it's the last
one I plugged in. It seems like its easier to just replace the ram
than run tests that dont tell me anything useful.
Isnt these some easier to use memory testing software, that gives the
results in plain and understandable english?
Thanks
George
