16bit apps on XP64 in virtual pc

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Zootal

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So, here is a question - I'm running XP64 (yeah, still...). I can't run any
of my 16 bit apps. However, today I installed VirtualPC2007, and installed
Win2000. From there, 16 bit apps work. Why? What is it about XP64 that 16
but apps don't run, yet I can run them from a virtual pc running in XP64?
 
Re: 16bit apps on XP64 in virtual pc

The addressible range of x64 requires greater than 16bits so 16-bit software
cannot run. Since the Win2000 vm is a 32-bit system the 16-bit apps can
work.

"Zootal" <msnews@zootal.nospam.com> wrote in message
news:ul%23rrYxXIHA.5208@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...
> So, here is a question - I'm running XP64 (yeah, still...). I can't run
> any of my 16 bit apps. However, today I installed VirtualPC2007, and
> installed Win2000. From there, 16 bit apps work. Why? What is it about
> XP64 that 16 but apps don't run, yet I can run them from a virtual pc
> running in XP64?
>
 
Re: 16bit apps on XP64 in virtual pc

To put it another way, neither XP64 nor Vista 64 include a
Windows-on-Windows (WoW) 16 system that would provide the support needed for
16 bit applications to run on the 64 bit OS. They do include a WoW 32
system. VPC 2007 or similar provides support.

Tom
MSMVP 1998-2007

"Zootal" <msnews@zootal.nospam.com> wrote in message
news:ul%23rrYxXIHA.5208@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...
> So, here is a question - I'm running XP64 (yeah, still...). I can't run
> any of my 16 bit apps. However, today I installed VirtualPC2007, and
> installed Win2000. From there, 16 bit apps work. Why? What is it about
> XP64 that 16 but apps don't run, yet I can run them from a virtual pc
> running in XP64?
>
 
Re: 16bit apps on XP64 in virtual pc

Tom Ferguson wrote:
> To put it another way, neither XP64 nor Vista 64 include a
> Windows-on-Windows (WoW) 16 system that would provide the support needed
> for 16 bit applications to run on the 64 bit OS. They do include a WoW
> 32 system. VPC 2007 or similar provides support.
>
> Tom
> MSMVP 1998-2007
>

To add a bit. If Microsoft wanted, they could make such a subsystem.
Both amd and intel has support for it
 
Re: 16bit apps on XP64 in virtual pc

On Jan 24, 10:45 pm, jorgen <na@invalid> wrote:

> To add a bit. If Microsoft wanted, they could make such a subsystem.
> Both amd and intel has support for it

To add a bit more, Microsoft could choose to support CP/M apps too.

WHERE IS THE BACKWARDS COMPATIBILITY MICROSOFT??!

Sometimes ya just gotta let to. 16-bit was good while it lasted, now
it's time to go.
 
Re: 16bit apps on XP64 in virtual pc

Actually, there are emulators to run cp/m on a VM which virtualizes a Zilog
80.
http://www.dcast.vbox.co.uk/cpm_over.html
for one.
"MyZ80 is a high performance Z80 CPU software emulator for PCs. Thanks to
some very serious optimisation, it is the fastest and most accurate Z80
emulator available."

I suggest you run this emulator in VirtualPC 2007 on Vista.

Tom
MSMVP 1998-2007

"S.SubZero" <ssubzero@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:7ef23c08-635f-4504-9726-21807bf500aa@z17g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
> On Jan 24, 10:45 pm, jorgen <na@invalid> wrote:
>
>> To add a bit. If Microsoft wanted, they could make such a subsystem.
>> Both amd and intel has support for it
>
> To add a bit more, Microsoft could choose to support CP/M apps too.
>
> WHERE IS THE BACKWARDS COMPATIBILITY MICROSOFT??!
>
> Sometimes ya just gotta let to. 16-bit was good while it lasted, now
> it's time to go.
 
Re: 16bit apps on XP64 in virtual pc

Yes. MS made a deliberate decision here, and it's a wise one I think. In
order to support 16 bit applications, they'd have had to do things that
would compromise both stability and security. Instead, they drew a line in
the sand, and I think it makes sense in the long run. If you need to run 16
bit apps, Virtual Server/Virtual PC are viable options to do so.

--
Charlie.
http://msmvps.com/xperts64
http://mvp.support.microsoft.com/profile/charlie.russel


"S.SubZero" <ssubzero@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:7ef23c08-635f-4504-9726-21807bf500aa@z17g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
> On Jan 24, 10:45 pm, jorgen <na@invalid> wrote:
>
>> To add a bit. If Microsoft wanted, they could make such a subsystem.
>> Both amd and intel has support for it
>
> To add a bit more, Microsoft could choose to support CP/M apps too.
>
> WHERE IS THE BACKWARDS COMPATIBILITY MICROSOFT??!
>
> Sometimes ya just gotta let to. 16-bit was good while it lasted, now
> it's time to go.
 
Re: 16bit apps on XP64 in virtual pc


"S.SubZero" <ssubzero@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:7ef23c08-635f-4504-9726-21807bf500aa@z17g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
> On Jan 24, 10:45 pm, jorgen <na@invalid> wrote:
>
>> To add a bit. If Microsoft wanted, they could make such a subsystem.
>> Both amd and intel has support for it
>
> To add a bit more, Microsoft could choose to support CP/M apps too.
>
> WHERE IS THE BACKWARDS COMPATIBILITY MICROSOFT??!
>
> Sometimes ya just gotta let to. 16-bit was good while it lasted, now
> it's time to go.

When I have to. I still use an old DOS editor called Brief every now and
then, and I think Symantec Visual Page is either 16 bit, or is otherwise
non-compatible with XP64. However, the main reason I setup a virtual PC was
so I could run the stuff that won't work in XP64, such as the VPN clients -
neither Cisco nor CheckPoint support XP64, and I have to use them. So, I run
a Win2000 VM, and in it I install the CheckPoint VPN client, which works
just fine even though it won't install in XP64. And within the Win2000 VM I
remote into my hosts. Works good, actually
 
Re: 16bit apps on XP64 in virtual pc

Makes perfect sense to me. (And I remember Brief. But I abandoned it for vi,
and now use GVim as my primary editor on all platforms. )

--
Charlie.
http://msmvps.com/xperts64
http://mvp.support.microsoft.com/profile/charlie.russel


"Zootal" <msnews@zootal.nospam.com> wrote in message
news:%23PP0Ap5XIHA.5816@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl...
>
> "S.SubZero" <ssubzero@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:7ef23c08-635f-4504-9726-21807bf500aa@z17g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
>> On Jan 24, 10:45 pm, jorgen <na@invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> To add a bit. If Microsoft wanted, they could make such a subsystem.
>>> Both amd and intel has support for it
>>
>> To add a bit more, Microsoft could choose to support CP/M apps too.
>>
>> WHERE IS THE BACKWARDS COMPATIBILITY MICROSOFT??!
>>
>> Sometimes ya just gotta let to. 16-bit was good while it lasted, now
>> it's time to go.
>
> When I have to. I still use an old DOS editor called Brief every now and
> then, and I think Symantec Visual Page is either 16 bit, or is otherwise
> non-compatible with XP64. However, the main reason I setup a virtual PC
> was so I could run the stuff that won't work in XP64, such as the VPN
> clients - neither Cisco nor CheckPoint support XP64, and I have to use
> them. So, I run a Win2000 VM, and in it I install the CheckPoint VPN
> client, which works just fine even though it won't install in XP64. And
> within the Win2000 VM I remote into my hosts. Works good, actually
>
 
Re: 16bit apps on XP64 in virtual pc

Charlie Russel - MVP wrote:
> But I abandoned it for vi, and now use GVim as my primary editor on
> all platforms. )

Damn that's sweet...I am not alone! =)

~JasonG

--
 
Re: 16bit apps on XP64 in virtual pc

Nope. And there's even a native 64-bit Windows port available.

--
Charlie.
http://msmvps.com/xperts64
http://mvp.support.microsoft.com/profile/charlie.russel


"Jason Gurtz" <jasonNOgurtz@npuSPAMmail.com> wrote in message
news:ezLsL15XIHA.4532@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl...
> Charlie Russel - MVP wrote:
>> But I abandoned it for vi, and now use GVim as my primary editor on
>> all platforms. )
>
> Damn that's sweet...I am not alone! =)
>
> ~JasonG
>
> --
 
Re: 16bit apps on XP64 in virtual pc

Hi, Tom.

Now you've done it! The Z80 was my first CPU, in the original TRS-80, in
December 1977, 30 years ago last month. There are fond memories, but I
don't think I want to go back there. ;^}

RC
--
R. C. White, CPA
San Marcos, TX
rc@grandecom.net
Microsoft Windows MVP
(Running Windows Live Mail 2008 in Vista Ultimate x64)

"Tom Ferguson" <tom.newsgroups@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:#$p8S$4XIHA.4696@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...
> Actually, there are emulators to run cp/m on a VM which virtualizes a
> Zilog 80.
> http://www.dcast.vbox.co.uk/cpm_over.html
> for one.
> "MyZ80 is a high performance Z80 CPU software emulator for PCs. Thanks to
> some very serious optimisation, it is the fastest and most accurate Z80
> emulator available."
>
> I suggest you run this emulator in VirtualPC 2007 on Vista.
>
> Tom
> MSMVP 1998-2007
>
> "S.SubZero" <ssubzero@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:7ef23c08-635f-4504-9726-21807bf500aa@z17g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
>> On Jan 24, 10:45 pm, jorgen <na@invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> To add a bit. If Microsoft wanted, they could make such a subsystem.
>>> Both amd and intel has support for it
>>
>> To add a bit more, Microsoft could choose to support CP/M apps too.
>>
>> WHERE IS THE BACKWARDS COMPATIBILITY MICROSOFT??!
>>
>> Sometimes ya just gotta let to. 16-bit was good while it lasted, now
>> it's time to go.
 
Re: 16bit apps on XP64 in virtual pc


"Zootal" <msnews@zootal.nospam.com> wrote in message
news:ul%23rrYxXIHA.5208@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...
> So, here is a question - I'm running XP64 (yeah, still...).

No need to feel bad about that. I'm sure you'll find lots of users here
committed to XP X64 and don't plan to go to Vista 64.
I have both on my machine.
 
Re: 16bit apps on XP64 in virtual pc

>> So, here is a question - I'm running XP64 (yeah, still...).
>
> No need to feel bad about that. I'm sure you'll find lots of users here
> committed to XP X64 and don't plan to go to Vista 64.
> I have both on my machine.
>

My comment was actually a reference to all of the complaining I've done
about XP64 :-). There are a few things that won't run under XP64, and I've
come close to scrapping it and going back to XP32. But now that I've got a
VM running Win2000 (because I don't have any spare XP32 keys), I find that
the things that XP64 won't do seem to work well in the VM.

Vista 32/64 really isn't an option for me. It does *nothing* that I need or
want that XP won't do. And I don't need an OS that is likely to ask me "did
you want to click the mouse button?", "Did you really want to click the
mouse button?", "Are you really sure you wanted to click the mouse button?",
"Access denied! Clicking the mouse is a security hazard, and you are not
allowed to do that".....
 
Re: 16bit apps on XP64 in virtual pc

Colin Barnhorst wrote:
> The addressible range of x64 requires greater than 16bits so 16-bit
> software cannot run. Since the Win2000 vm is a 32-bit system the 16-bit
> apps can work.

I think you'll find you are very confused as to why they don't work.
It's that the operating system isn't allowing the segmented addressing
scheme that 16-bits apps require. Otherwise a 16-bit app could work just
fine within a 64-bit address space, the same as a 32-bit app could.

Your explanation would hold water for why you can't run a 64- or 32-bit
app in a 16-bit address space (can't fit 64 bits into 16), not vice versa.
 
Re: 16bit apps on XP64 in virtual pc

> I think you'll find you are very confused as to why they don't work. It's
> that the operating system isn't allowing the segmented addressing scheme
> that 16-bits apps require. Otherwise a 16-bit app could work just fine
> within a 64-bit address space, the same as a 32-bit app could.

I'm guessing this is a intentional design, not an inherent limitation?
 
Re: 16bit apps on XP64 in virtual pc

Zootal wrote:
>> I think you'll find you are very confused as to why they don't work. It's
>> that the operating system isn't allowing the segmented addressing scheme
>> that 16-bits apps require. Otherwise a 16-bit app could work just fine
>> within a 64-bit address space, the same as a 32-bit app could.
>
> I'm guessing this is a intentional design, not an inherent limitation?

I believe this was an operating system design decision, rather than an
actual processor limitation, yes. I believe it was the correct decision,
especially as there are several ways to run 16-bit apps if you really
must, such as virtualization (VPC or VMware) or emulation (Bochs).

Graham.
 
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