OT - Father's Day in Argentina

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Carlos

Guest
Today (3rd Sunday of June) is Father's Day and I want to say Hello to all the
fathers who hang around in this highly regarded newsgroup.
Happy Father's Day to everyone!
:)
Carlos
 
Re: OT - Father's Day in Argentina

Carlos:
Thank you. Have a great Father's Day.

--
Dennis Pack
XP x64 SP2, Vista Enterprise x64 SP1
WHS, Office Professional Plus 2007
"Carlos" <Carlos@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:38ED6BC8-1242-4E6C-B87E-B4FD72CFDCFB@microsoft.com...
> Today (3rd Sunday of June) is Father's Day and I want to say Hello to all
> the
> fathers who hang around in this highly regarded newsgroup.
> Happy Father's Day to everyone!
> :)
> Carlos
 
Re: OT - Father's Day in Argentina

Indeed. Though I'll broaden it to simply parents. Living in a country where
support for non-traditional marriage is both the law and the reality, it
seems rather more appropriate. ;)

I'm going to celebrate by spending the afternoon watching Tiger Woods win
the US Open. I saw his amazing back nine yesterday and was simply in awe.

--
Charlie.
http://msmvps.com/blogs/xperts64
http://mvp.support.microsoft.com/profile/charlie.russel


"Carlos" <Carlos@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:38ED6BC8-1242-4E6C-B87E-B4FD72CFDCFB@microsoft.com...
> Today (3rd Sunday of June) is Father's Day and I want to say Hello to all
> the
> fathers who hang around in this highly regarded newsgroup.
> Happy Father's Day to everyone!
> :)
> Carlos
 
Re: OT - Father's Day in Argentina

Down here we are watching Argentina vs Ecuador for the 2010 World Soccer
Championship playoffs.
:)
Carlos

"Charlie Russel - MVP" wrote:

> Indeed. Though I'll broaden it to simply parents. Living in a country where
> support for non-traditional marriage is both the law and the reality, it
> seems rather more appropriate. ;)
>
> I'm going to celebrate by spending the afternoon watching Tiger Woods win
> the US Open. I saw his amazing back nine yesterday and was simply in awe.
>
> --
> Charlie.
> http://msmvps.com/blogs/xperts64
> http://mvp.support.microsoft.com/profile/charlie.russel
>
>
> "Carlos" <Carlos@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
> news:38ED6BC8-1242-4E6C-B87E-B4FD72CFDCFB@microsoft.com...
> > Today (3rd Sunday of June) is Father's Day and I want to say Hello to all
> > the
> > fathers who hang around in this highly regarded newsgroup.
> > Happy Father's Day to everyone!
> > :)
> > Carlos

>
 
Re: OT - Father's Day in Argentina

Becoming a grandfather didn't bother me, but waking up one morning to the
realization that I was married to a grandmother did!

Have a great Fathers' Day, Carlos.

"Carlos" <Carlos@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:38ED6BC8-1242-4E6C-B87E-B4FD72CFDCFB@microsoft.com...
> Today (3rd Sunday of June) is Father's Day and I want to say Hello to all
> the
> fathers who hang around in this highly regarded newsgroup.
> Happy Father's Day to everyone!
> :)
> Carlos
 
Re: OT - Father's Day in Argentina

I'm watching USA v Barbados in a CONCACAF qualifyer.

"Carlos" <Carlos@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:C0074340-5095-4402-8AD7-8C49FDDBB574@microsoft.com...
> Down here we are watching Argentina vs Ecuador for the 2010 World Soccer
> Championship playoffs.
> :)
> Carlos
>
> "Charlie Russel - MVP" wrote:
>
>> Indeed. Though I'll broaden it to simply parents. Living in a country
>> where
>> support for non-traditional marriage is both the law and the reality, it
>> seems rather more appropriate. ;)
>>
>> I'm going to celebrate by spending the afternoon watching Tiger Woods win
>> the US Open. I saw his amazing back nine yesterday and was simply in awe.
>>
>> --
>> Charlie.
>> http://msmvps.com/blogs/xperts64
>> http://mvp.support.microsoft.com/profile/charlie.russel
>>
>>
>> "Carlos" <Carlos@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
>> news:38ED6BC8-1242-4E6C-B87E-B4FD72CFDCFB@microsoft.com...
>> > Today (3rd Sunday of June) is Father's Day and I want to say Hello to
>> > all
>> > the
>> > fathers who hang around in this highly regarded newsgroup.
>> > Happy Father's Day to everyone!
>> > :)
>> > Carlos

>>
 
Re: OT - Father's Day in Argentina

Hi, Colin, Carlos - and all.

I like the long title of Al Roker's book: If I Had Known They Were So Much
Fun, I Would Have Had My Grandchildren First! ;<)

We have only one son and one grandson, but they both came to wish me a Happy
Father's Day.

And, yes, Carlos, in the USA, we also celebrate the 3rd Sunday of June as
Father's Day. (Although we always debate whether and where to place the
apostrophe: Fathers Day? Father's Day? Fathers' Day? No, I don't want to
debate that here, just make a note of it.)

I hope you had a good one!

RC
--
R. C. White, CPA
San Marcos, TX
rc@grandecom.net
Microsoft Windows MVP
(Running Windows Live Mail 2008 in Vista Ultimate x64 SP1)

"Colin Barnhorst" <c.barnhorst@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:8FC3AC86-D416-4A53-8AC6-47CD881304B1@microsoft.com...
> Becoming a grandfather didn't bother me, but waking up one morning to the
> realization that I was married to a grandmother did!
>
> Have a great Fathers' Day, Carlos.
>
> "Carlos" <Carlos@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
> news:38ED6BC8-1242-4E6C-B87E-B4FD72CFDCFB@microsoft.com...
>> Today (3rd Sunday of June) is Father's Day and I want to say Hello to all
>> the
>> fathers who hang around in this highly regarded newsgroup.
>> Happy Father's Day to everyone!
>> :)
>> Carlos
 
Re: OT - Father's Day in Argentina

That's an intriguing debate, though. As someone who tries to 'dabble' in
translations, the art of 'punctuation' is particularly tricky across
languages - wouldn't this 'Apostrohe' matter be dependent on wether you are
referring to one particular father's [Fathers' Day], or the general concept,
perhaps?

Sorry, for prodding!


Tony. . .



"R. C. White" <rc@grandecom.net> wrote in message
news:4541C4CF-63FC-4929-99CB-7FB357B44F93@microsoft.com...
> Hi, Colin, Carlos - and all.
>
> I like the long title of Al Roker's book: If I Had Known They Were So

Much
> Fun, I Would Have Had My Grandchildren First! ;<)
>
> We have only one son and one grandson, but they both came to wish me a

Happy
> Father's Day.
>
> And, yes, Carlos, in the USA, we also celebrate the 3rd Sunday of June as
> Father's Day. (Although we always debate whether and where to place the
> apostrophe: Fathers Day? Father's Day? Fathers' Day? No, I don't want

to
> debate that here, just make a note of it.)
>
> I hope you had a good one!
>
> RC
> --
> R. C. White, CPA
> San Marcos, TX
> rc@grandecom.net
> Microsoft Windows MVP
> (Running Windows Live Mail 2008 in Vista Ultimate x64 SP1)
>
> "Colin Barnhorst" <c.barnhorst@comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:8FC3AC86-D416-4A53-8AC6-47CD881304B1@microsoft.com...
> > Becoming a grandfather didn't bother me, but waking up one morning to

the
> > realization that I was married to a grandmother did!
> >
> > Have a great Fathers' Day, Carlos.
> >
> > "Carlos" <Carlos@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
> > news:38ED6BC8-1242-4E6C-B87E-B4FD72CFDCFB@microsoft.com...
> >> Today (3rd Sunday of June) is Father's Day and I want to say Hello to

all
> >> the
> >> fathers who hang around in this highly regarded newsgroup.
> >> Happy Father's Day to everyone!
> >> :)
> >> Carlos

>
 
Re: OT - Father's Day in Argentina

There is no ambiguity in Spanish, because it is singular: "Día del Padre"
(Day of the Father) and we have no need for the apostrophe and the "s" for
denoting pertenence.
How does it sound in Danish?
Carlos
BTW: I saw the other day, in "Bio" Channel on DirecTV, the life of von
Bülow, famous danish millionaire. Interesting guy...

"Tony Sperling" wrote:

> That's an intriguing debate, though. As someone who tries to 'dabble' in
> translations, the art of 'punctuation' is particularly tricky across
> languages - wouldn't this 'Apostrohe' matter be dependent on wether you are
> referring to one particular father's [Fathers' Day], or the general concept,
> perhaps?
>
> Sorry, for prodding!
>
>
> Tony. . .
>
>
>
> "R. C. White" <rc@grandecom.net> wrote in message
> news:4541C4CF-63FC-4929-99CB-7FB357B44F93@microsoft.com...
> > Hi, Colin, Carlos - and all.
> >
> > I like the long title of Al Roker's book: If I Had Known They Were So

> Much
> > Fun, I Would Have Had My Grandchildren First! ;<)
> >
> > We have only one son and one grandson, but they both came to wish me a

> Happy
> > Father's Day.
> >
> > And, yes, Carlos, in the USA, we also celebrate the 3rd Sunday of June as
> > Father's Day. (Although we always debate whether and where to place the
> > apostrophe: Fathers Day? Father's Day? Fathers' Day? No, I don't want

> to
> > debate that here, just make a note of it.)
> >
> > I hope you had a good one!
> >
> > RC
> > --
> > R. C. White, CPA
> > San Marcos, TX
> > rc@grandecom.net
> > Microsoft Windows MVP
> > (Running Windows Live Mail 2008 in Vista Ultimate x64 SP1)
> >
> > "Colin Barnhorst" <c.barnhorst@comcast.net> wrote in message
> > news:8FC3AC86-D416-4A53-8AC6-47CD881304B1@microsoft.com...
> > > Becoming a grandfather didn't bother me, but waking up one morning to

> the
> > > realization that I was married to a grandmother did!
> > >
> > > Have a great Fathers' Day, Carlos.
> > >
> > > "Carlos" <Carlos@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
> > > news:38ED6BC8-1242-4E6C-B87E-B4FD72CFDCFB@microsoft.com...
> > >> Today (3rd Sunday of June) is Father's Day and I want to say Hello to

> all
> > >> the
> > >> fathers who hang around in this highly regarded newsgroup.
> > >> Happy Father's Day to everyone!
> > >> :)
> > >> Carlos

> >

>
>
>
 
Re: OT - Father's Day in Argentina

The Danish version also has no direct ambiguity, the general concept is
handled pretty much the same as the specific one, although I do believe we
should apply the apostrophe, to not have 'father' confused with 'minced
meat', but I'm not sure that everybody really cares. We're a relaxed bunch,
here - "Far's Dag" will convey the meaning and most of our vocals have an
open sound so the first 'A' sounds like in the English "ahh!", while the
second gets distorted by the following 'dumb' consonant' which ends the
word in a 'Gutural Pressure' which the Danish language is unique in
possessing among the human languages, I believe.

Ah, Von Bülow - yes, he had an issue with the wife I remember, appart from
that the world history is swarming with Danes without whom we would all
still be feeling our way through eternal darkness! How many out there have
heard of H.C. Ørsted? He discovered electromagnetism, and it is widely
accepted that without his work all later discoveries in the field would
never have been even dreamed about, because he persisted against the
mainstream in a day when that was not a good idea if you wanted a career.
Niels Bohr, you all know of, of course, but there are an endless row of
others. It's funny, these things come in waves, at a certain time it is the
Flemmish - at other times it is the French, German and Spanish or English,
but us, up here in the dark and cold north we have our place in history
too - not that I ever thought you would suspect otherwise!


Tony. . .



"Carlos" <Carlos@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:2237E68B-BE37-44D1-8059-6959ECA54341@microsoft.com...
> There is no ambiguity in Spanish, because it is singular: "Día del Padre"
> (Day of the Father) and we have no need for the apostrophe and the "s" for
> denoting pertenence.
> How does it sound in Danish?
> Carlos
> BTW: I saw the other day, in "Bio" Channel on DirecTV, the life of von
> Bülow, famous danish millionaire. Interesting guy...
>
> "Tony Sperling" wrote:
>
> > That's an intriguing debate, though. As someone who tries to 'dabble' in
> > translations, the art of 'punctuation' is particularly tricky across
> > languages - wouldn't this 'Apostrohe' matter be dependent on wether you

are
> > referring to one particular father's [Fathers' Day], or the general

concept,
> > perhaps?
> >
> > Sorry, for prodding!
> >
> >
> > Tony. . .
> >
> >
> >
> > "R. C. White" <rc@grandecom.net> wrote in message
> > news:4541C4CF-63FC-4929-99CB-7FB357B44F93@microsoft.com...
> > > Hi, Colin, Carlos - and all.
> > >
> > > I like the long title of Al Roker's book: If I Had Known They Were So

> > Much
> > > Fun, I Would Have Had My Grandchildren First! ;<)
> > >
> > > We have only one son and one grandson, but they both came to wish me a

> > Happy
> > > Father's Day.
> > >
> > > And, yes, Carlos, in the USA, we also celebrate the 3rd Sunday of June

as
> > > Father's Day. (Although we always debate whether and where to place

the
> > > apostrophe: Fathers Day? Father's Day? Fathers' Day? No, I don't

want
> > to
> > > debate that here, just make a note of it.)
> > >
> > > I hope you had a good one!
> > >
> > > RC
> > > --
> > > R. C. White, CPA
> > > San Marcos, TX
> > > rc@grandecom.net
> > > Microsoft Windows MVP
> > > (Running Windows Live Mail 2008 in Vista Ultimate x64 SP1)
> > >
> > > "Colin Barnhorst" <c.barnhorst@comcast.net> wrote in message
> > > news:8FC3AC86-D416-4A53-8AC6-47CD881304B1@microsoft.com...
> > > > Becoming a grandfather didn't bother me, but waking up one morning

to
> > the
> > > > realization that I was married to a grandmother did!
> > > >
> > > > Have a great Fathers' Day, Carlos.
> > > >
> > > > "Carlos" <Carlos@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
> > > > news:38ED6BC8-1242-4E6C-B87E-B4FD72CFDCFB@microsoft.com...
> > > >> Today (3rd Sunday of June) is Father's Day and I want to say Hello

to
> > all
> > > >> the
> > > >> fathers who hang around in this highly regarded newsgroup.
> > > >> Happy Father's Day to everyone!
> > > >> :)
> > > >> Carlos
> > >

> >
> >
> >
 
Re: OT - Father's Day in Argentina

Tony,
The same applies to the "young" country Argentina.
A guy named Biro invented the ball-tip pen, another one named Vucetich
invented people's identification by their fingerprints!
All of it happened here.
And, of course, we have Carlos Gardel and Maradona.
:)
Carlos

"Tony Sperling" wrote:

> The Danish version also has no direct ambiguity, the general concept is
> handled pretty much the same as the specific one, although I do believe we
> should apply the apostrophe, to not have 'father' confused with 'minced
> meat', but I'm not sure that everybody really cares. We're a relaxed bunch,
> here - "Far's Dag" will convey the meaning and most of our vocals have an
> open sound so the first 'A' sounds like in the English "ahh!", while the
> second gets distorted by the following 'dumb' consonant' which ends the
> word in a 'Gutural Pressure' which the Danish language is unique in
> possessing among the human languages, I believe.
>
> Ah, Von Bülow - yes, he had an issue with the wife I remember, appart from
> that the world history is swarming with Danes without whom we would all
> still be feeling our way through eternal darkness! How many out there have
> heard of H.C. Ørsted? He discovered electromagnetism, and it is widely
> accepted that without his work all later discoveries in the field would
> never have been even dreamed about, because he persisted against the
> mainstream in a day when that was not a good idea if you wanted a career.
> Niels Bohr, you all know of, of course, but there are an endless row of
> others. It's funny, these things come in waves, at a certain time it is the
> Flemmish - at other times it is the French, German and Spanish or English,
> but us, up here in the dark and cold north we have our place in history
> too - not that I ever thought you would suspect otherwise!
>
>
> Tony. . .
>
>
>
> "Carlos" <Carlos@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
> news:2237E68B-BE37-44D1-8059-6959ECA54341@microsoft.com...
> > There is no ambiguity in Spanish, because it is singular: "Día del Padre"
> > (Day of the Father) and we have no need for the apostrophe and the "s" for
> > denoting pertenence.
> > How does it sound in Danish?
> > Carlos
> > BTW: I saw the other day, in "Bio" Channel on DirecTV, the life of von
> > Bülow, famous danish millionaire. Interesting guy...
> >
> > "Tony Sperling" wrote:
> >
> > > That's an intriguing debate, though. As someone who tries to 'dabble' in
> > > translations, the art of 'punctuation' is particularly tricky across
> > > languages - wouldn't this 'Apostrohe' matter be dependent on wether you

> are
> > > referring to one particular father's [Fathers' Day], or the general

> concept,
> > > perhaps?
> > >
> > > Sorry, for prodding!
> > >
> > >
> > > Tony. . .
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > "R. C. White" <rc@grandecom.net> wrote in message
> > > news:4541C4CF-63FC-4929-99CB-7FB357B44F93@microsoft.com...
> > > > Hi, Colin, Carlos - and all.
> > > >
> > > > I like the long title of Al Roker's book: If I Had Known They Were So
> > > Much
> > > > Fun, I Would Have Had My Grandchildren First! ;<)
> > > >
> > > > We have only one son and one grandson, but they both came to wish me a
> > > Happy
> > > > Father's Day.
> > > >
> > > > And, yes, Carlos, in the USA, we also celebrate the 3rd Sunday of June

> as
> > > > Father's Day. (Although we always debate whether and where to place

> the
> > > > apostrophe: Fathers Day? Father's Day? Fathers' Day? No, I don't

> want
> > > to
> > > > debate that here, just make a note of it.)
> > > >
> > > > I hope you had a good one!
> > > >
> > > > RC
> > > > --
> > > > R. C. White, CPA
> > > > San Marcos, TX
> > > > rc@grandecom.net
> > > > Microsoft Windows MVP
> > > > (Running Windows Live Mail 2008 in Vista Ultimate x64 SP1)
> > > >
> > > > "Colin Barnhorst" <c.barnhorst@comcast.net> wrote in message
> > > > news:8FC3AC86-D416-4A53-8AC6-47CD881304B1@microsoft.com...
> > > > > Becoming a grandfather didn't bother me, but waking up one morning

> to
> > > the
> > > > > realization that I was married to a grandmother did!
> > > > >
> > > > > Have a great Fathers' Day, Carlos.
> > > > >
> > > > > "Carlos" <Carlos@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
> > > > > news:38ED6BC8-1242-4E6C-B87E-B4FD72CFDCFB@microsoft.com...
> > > > >> Today (3rd Sunday of June) is Father's Day and I want to say Hello

> to
> > > all
> > > > >> the
> > > > >> fathers who hang around in this highly regarded newsgroup.
> > > > >> Happy Father's Day to everyone!
> > > > >> :)
> > > > >> Carlos
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >

>
>
>
 
Re: OT - Father's Day in Argentina

On Tue, 17 Jun 2008 06:55:00 -0700, Carlos
<Carlos@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote:

>Maradona.


If you want to see a Brit foam around his mouth, just mention that name ;-)

jud
 
Re: OT - Father's Day in Argentina

"Maradona" or "Madonna"? :)

"Jud Hendrix" <none@none.com> wrote in message
news:osai541veikbc4bh8r2jktsvminrssubk9@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 17 Jun 2008 06:55:00 -0700, Carlos
> <Carlos@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote:
>
>>Maradona.

>
> If you want to see a Brit foam around his mouth, just mention that name
> ;-)
>
> jud
 
Re: OT - Father's Day in Argentina

That would be Maradona.
The one that with "God's helping hand" scoread a goal against the Brits a
bunch of years ago during a World Soccer Championship.
:) :) :)
Carlos

"Colin Barnhorst" wrote:

> "Maradona" or "Madonna"? :)
>
> "Jud Hendrix" <none@none.com> wrote in message
> news:osai541veikbc4bh8r2jktsvminrssubk9@4ax.com...
> > On Tue, 17 Jun 2008 06:55:00 -0700, Carlos
> > <Carlos@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote:
> >
> >>Maradona.

> >
> > If you want to see a Brit foam around his mouth, just mention that name
> > ;-)
> >
> > jud

>
 
Re: OT - Father's Day in Argentina

You bet!
But we are not misers and want to share our "abilities".
Many of our young naughty boys (i.e."soccer players") have been exported
(i.e.: "sold") to Europe (Lionel Messi, Sergio Agüero, Carlos Tévez) so that
you can learn from our "best practices".
BTW, tonight is the night!
Argentina vs Brazil for the championship playoffs.
Carlos

"Jud Hendrix" wrote:

> On Tue, 17 Jun 2008 06:55:00 -0700, Carlos
> <Carlos@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote:
>
> >Maradona.

>
> If you want to see a Brit foam around his mouth, just mention that name ;-)
>
> jud
>
 
Re: OT - Father's Day in Argentina

Yes, I watched that World Cup match back then. "If it wasn't your hand
whose hand was it?" asked the reporter. "It must have been the hand of
God." And such a look of innocence.

"Carlos" <Carlos@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:D5BE609C-13C6-4D21-9D00-BE93350F1535@microsoft.com...
> That would be Maradona.
> The one that with "God's helping hand" scoread a goal against the Brits a
> bunch of years ago during a World Soccer Championship.
> :) :) :)
> Carlos
>
> "Colin Barnhorst" wrote:
>
>> "Maradona" or "Madonna"? :)
>>
>> "Jud Hendrix" <none@none.com> wrote in message
>> news:osai541veikbc4bh8r2jktsvminrssubk9@4ax.com...
>> > On Tue, 17 Jun 2008 06:55:00 -0700, Carlos
>> > <Carlos@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >>Maradona.
>> >
>> > If you want to see a Brit foam around his mouth, just mention that name
>> > ;-)
>> >
>> > jud

>>
 
Re: OT - Father's Day in Argentina

Rugby players also.

"Carlos" <Carlos@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:EB30ABDF-C02B-4A4C-8683-205A5233EE50@microsoft.com...
> You bet!
> But we are not misers and want to share our "abilities".
> Many of our young naughty boys (i.e."soccer players") have been exported
> (i.e.: "sold") to Europe (Lionel Messi, Sergio Agüero, Carlos Tévez) so
> that
> you can learn from our "best practices".
> BTW, tonight is the night!
> Argentina vs Brazil for the championship playoffs.
> Carlos
>
> "Jud Hendrix" wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 17 Jun 2008 06:55:00 -0700, Carlos
>> <Carlos@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote:
>>
>> >Maradona.

>>
>> If you want to see a Brit foam around his mouth, just mention that name
>> ;-)
>>
>> jud
>>
 
Re: OT - Father's Day in Argentina

Sure, but they are not nasty little brats like their soccer siblings!
;)
And we have also done a good "export job" to the NBA, like "Manu" Ginóbili,
Nocioni and others.

Carlos

"Colin Barnhorst" wrote:

> Rugby players also.
>
> "Carlos" <Carlos@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
> news:EB30ABDF-C02B-4A4C-8683-205A5233EE50@microsoft.com...
> > You bet!
> > But we are not misers and want to share our "abilities".
> > Many of our young naughty boys (i.e."soccer players") have been exported
> > (i.e.: "sold") to Europe (Lionel Messi, Sergio Agüero, Carlos Tévez) so
> > that
> > you can learn from our "best practices".
> > BTW, tonight is the night!
> > Argentina vs Brazil for the championship playoffs.
> > Carlos
> >
> > "Jud Hendrix" wrote:
> >
> >> On Tue, 17 Jun 2008 06:55:00 -0700, Carlos
> >> <Carlos@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> >Maradona.
> >>
> >> If you want to see a Brit foam around his mouth, just mention that name
> >> ;-)
> >>
> >> jud
> >>

>
 
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