Windows Vista Vista Migration Scaring Off IT Pros

[xfile]

Re: Vista Migration Scaring Off IT Pros

> You need some new, different and drastic technology change to emerge
> that's going to over take MS and knock MS off the box [...]

Agreed. But for home use, OS will become less relevant especially for new
users in emerging markets (in terms of computer growth rate and usage, not
in economic status), so that will open a new door for other OSes.

>Information Technology really has not changed that much in 30 some years. I
>am doing the same stuff technology wise with computers I was doing back in
>the 1970's.

Agreed. That's the problem and challenge for the entire industry including
open source or not and part of reasons for people don't want move forward.

A side note: I disagree with what you said, "It's not the CFO that needs to
be convinced, it's the CIO, VP of IT and managers that need to be on board.
The CFO is just along for the ride".

In well managed companies (e.g. with auditing systems), CFO will need to be
convinced (by CIO, in this case) before a major budget can be allocated.
But if we are talking about any company, well, anything can and will happen.

Of course, just personal opinions.


"Mr. Arnold" <MR. Arnold@Arnold.com> wrote in message
news:%23osNHl4LIHA.1184@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...
>
> "DanS" <t.h.i.s.n.t.h.a.t@a.d.e.l.p.h.i.a.n.e.t> wrote in message
> news:Xns99F35F6FC35B2thisnthatadelphianet@216.196.97.142...
>> "Mr. Arnold" <MR. Arnold@Arnold.com> wrote in
>> news:efLkEouLIHA.536@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl:
>>
>>> I don't even have to read the links you have posted, because of the
>>> words
>>> *we don't have any plans* and *we are concerned*.
>>
>> Well let's see, I'll quote them here for you......
>>
>> 'Ninety percent of 961 IT professionals surveyed said they have concerns
>> about migrating to Vista and more than half said they have no plans to
>> deploy Vista.
>>
> They said it in the past. All it means that they don't have any plans at
> this time that's all it means. They are waiting a couple of years, just
> like they waited a couple of years before the vast majority moved from Win
> 2K to XP Pro or Win 2K server to Win 2k3 server. They are goin g to do the
> same thing with Vista and Win 2k8 server.
>
>> "The concerns about Vista specified by participants were overwhelmingly
>> related to stability. Stability in general was frequently cited, as well
>> as compatibility with the business software that would need to run on
>> Vista," said Diane Hagglund of King Research, which conducted the survey
>> for systems management vendor Kace. "Cost was also cited as a concern by
>> some respondents."
>
> Talk is cheap. They said the same thing about Win 2K. They said the same
> thing about Win XP. They said the same thing with Win 2k3 server. Hell
> they even said companies wouldn't move to the client server platform
> totally 20 years ago. They also said the the big iron horse mainframes
> would be a thing of the past 20 years ago, and they are still here pushing
> those transactions and have not gone any where.
>>
>> The survey, echoing one from Forrester last week, shows most IT
>> professionals are worried about Vista and that 44% have considered non-
>> Windows operating systems, such as Linux and Macintosh, to avoid the
>> Microsoft migration.'
>
> I got Linux too. There is nothing wrong with Linux. Linux is just another
> O/S. Business is business and IT doesn't jump ship at the drop of a hat.
> And what? Do you think companies are going to start just migrating over to
> Linux when their entire IT work force is comprised of a MS trained staff
> and a MS end user base?
>
> What kind of business management is that? Yes, you have a minority that
> can afford to make such a move, but the vast vast majority of companies
> don't have that kind of money to burn -- not in today's business
> environment. And if one thinks that such a migration doesn't cost big
> money to make such a migration, he or she is just kidding and don't know
> what it takes.
>
>>
>> ........ so this survey echoes the one from Forrester last week !?!?!?!?
>>
>> WAIT !!!!!!! THREE WEEKS AGO IN A SURVEY (FUNDED BY MICROSOFT ?),
>> FORRESTER CONCLUDED THAT BUSSINESSS WOULD START UPDATING TO VISTA IN
>> DROVES BY MID-2008.
>>
>> So which one is it ?
>
> And because of Win 2K3 server, IIS 6, and .NET, MS continues to walk down
> Linux and Apache in the Web server platform dominance.
>
> http://news.netcraft.com/archives/2007/10/11/october_2007_web_server_survey.html
>>
>> I'll bet if you get Linux users worldwide to each donate $1, they can
>> commission a study by Forrester that will say that Linux IS the future
>> and more people are moving to Linux than upgrading to Vista and that MS
>> will vanish within 10 years.
>
> Most likely, they are just keeping the status quo for right now. Man, MS
> had the same problem with Win 2k pro and XP when they were released. There
> was suppose to be XP servers. What happened to that? I'll tell you what
> happened. They became Win 2k3 servers . It's the same old song and dance
> that's been going on for the last 20 years or so.
>
> I see some movement to use Linux and some for Apple, but it's never going
> to out pace MS. It's not happening in the business sector or in the home
> user sector that MS is going to be out paced knocked out the box -- not
> in my lifetime, your lifetime or anyone else's lifetime.
>
> You need some new, different and drastic technology change to emerge
> that's going to over take MS and knock MS off the box other than what is
> happening now with Information Technology with a new player as the leader.
> Where is the technological change?
>
> I am talking horse and buggy technology to the car, propeller driven air
> planes to jets, boats with wind propulsion to to the boat propulsion
> power used today, IBM missing boat on the personal computer usage and
> things of that nature -- that kind of technical change. Where is it?
> Information Technology really has not changed that much in 30 some years.
> I am doing the same stuff technology wise with computers I was doing back
> in the 1970's.
>
>
>

 

[xfile]

Re: Vista Migration Scaring Off IT Pros

> The size of a sample needed to make accurate predictions about
> a population is suprisingly small [...]

Yes, and one of the challenges, as Jupiter Jones pointed out, is how to
select the right ones (not direct quotes), and I'd also like to add, how to
reveal their true thoughts. Not necessary because people are lying, but
it's not uncommon that people don't always reveal their true thoughts,
sometimes, they just don't know it.

In any case, that's why we need experts, just like experts in computer
fields.


"the wharf rat" <wrat@panix.com> wrote in message
news:fib2b0$mhp$1@reader1.panix.com...
> In article <ehugFPwLIHA.5328@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl>,
> xfile <coucou@nospam.com> wrote:
>>
>>And as far as for sampling, quantity has nothing to do with quality.
>>Gallop
>>has been very accurate on predicting US presidential elections with very
>>small samples, just for example. And you often pointed out, using this
>
> The size of a sample needed to make accurate predictions about
> a population is suprisingly small, especially if you ask yes or no
> questions. You can look up the formula; a couple of hundred is enough to
> make 99.5% accurate predictions on an almost infinitely large population.
>

 

[DanS]

Re: Vista Migration Scaring Off IT Pros

"mayayana" <mayaXXyana1a@mindXXspring.com> wrote in news:#b$xql3LIHA.4684
@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl:

>> ........ so this survey echoes the one from Forrester last week !?!?!?!?
>>
>> WAIT !!!!!!! THREE WEEKS AGO IN A SURVEY (FUNDED BY MICROSOFT ?),
>> FORRESTER CONCLUDED THAT BUSSINESSS WOULD START UPDATING TO VISTA IN
>> DROVES BY MID-2008.

Funny.......after finding the link.....

http://blogs.zdnet.com/microsoft/?p=948&tag=nl.e539

And the mention of the Forrester reports _may_ have been the same report
referenced.

It's hilarious how each side sees the results in a positive way for their
respective views.

>>
> Really? I didn't know about that. I'd love to read a
> book that just details the connections that happened
> behind the scenes of well-known studies. Microsoft
> is brazen to the point of ludicrous in their bending
> of the facts (Last time I saw Bill Gates speak he was
> complaining on TV (Charlie Rose, I think) that people
> unfaoirly thought Vista was more expensive than XP),
> but I don't think they're at all unique - in the tech. field
> or outside. Press releases and trumped-up studies are
> what pass for news these days.
>
>

 

[Mr. Arnold]

Re: Vista Migration Scaring Off IT Pros


"xfile" <coucou@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:%23uu5g57LIHA.3852@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl...
>> You need some new, different and drastic technology change to emerge
>> that's going to over take MS and knock MS off the box [...]
>
> Agreed. But for home use, OS will become less relevant especially for new
> users in emerging markets (in terms of computer growth rate and usage, not
> in economic status), so that will open a new door for other OSes.
>
>>Information Technology really has not changed that much in 30 some years.
>>I am doing the same stuff technology wise with computers I was doing back
>>in the 1970's.
>
> Agreed. That's the problem and challenge for the entire industry
> including open source or not and part of reasons for people don't want
> move forward.
>
> A side note: I disagree with what you said, "It's not the CFO that needs
> to be convinced, it's the CIO, VP of IT and managers that need to be on
> board. The CFO is just along for the ride".
>
> In well managed companies (e.g. with auditing systems), CFO will need to
> be convinced (by CIO, in this case) before a major budget can be
> allocated. But if we are talking about any company, well, anything can and
> will happen.

Well, if the CIO, VP of IT and the managers are making the case to the CFO
who really knows nothing about the business needs, then what do you think is
going to happen? People in those positions know how to play the game and
present the case/business needs. It's a given. You think they are going to
be turned down when they come as a collective group in this case?

I have also seen it with the end-user base where the IT department back
charged the end user departments for services rendered. The VP(s)/department
heads that controlled the dollars for their respective departments wanted
change to new technology such as .NET, which the IT department refused to go
it. What do you think happened when those VP(s) of the departments came
together and put the pressure on?

Yeah, myself, my boss, and another developer put the business need case
together for those VP(s), because most of the managers in charge were
mainframe managers that controlled everything. And the VP(s) of the other
departments in turn rammed the business case right down the VP of IT's
throat. They got what was needed and what they wanted.

One has to know how to play the game.

 

[xfile]

Re: Vista Migration Scaring Off IT Pros

> Well, if the CIO, VP of IT and the managers are making the case to the
> CFO who really knows nothing about the business needs, then what do you
> think is going to happen? People in those positions know how to play the
> game and present the case/business needs. It's a given. You think they are
> going to be turned down when they come as a collective group in this case?

If that particular CFO doesn't know "business" needs, he/she shouldn't be in
that position in the first place. However, it's not unusual for what seems
to be "business" needs perceived by engineering dept. don't always address
the true "business" needs.

For illustration purpose only, what returns can .Net (or any other new
technology) provide in dollars regardless of its technological advancements?
Does it improve product's time-to-market so that the company will earn some
extra dollars? Does it save maintenance fees in X amount of dollars? Does
it help employees to process more orders within the same amount of time so
the cost will go down and revenue per day will go up? These are some
examples of business needs that a qualified CIO or CFO or line manager will
and should ask. I am using those as examples because too many business
needs are vague, such as improved performance or improved security.

Finally, power struggle and fighting for limited resources are nothing new
for any company. What you have experienced and witnessed are valid but they
don't necessary represent the majority case nor as a way of operating and
managing a business.

For the sake of debate, we can always use radical examples for making our
points. If for discussion purpose, a common ground should be established
before going further. I for one have no interests in pure debate.


"Mr. Arnold" <MR. Arnold@Arnold.com> wrote in message
news:%23aylLf8LIHA.1168@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl...
>
> "xfile" <coucou@nospam.com> wrote in message
> news:%23uu5g57LIHA.3852@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl...
>>> You need some new, different and drastic technology change to emerge
>>> that's going to over take MS and knock MS off the box [...]
>>
>> Agreed. But for home use, OS will become less relevant especially for
>> new users in emerging markets (in terms of computer growth rate and
>> usage, not in economic status), so that will open a new door for other
>> OSes.
>>
>>>Information Technology really has not changed that much in 30 some years.
>>>I am doing the same stuff technology wise with computers I was doing back
>>>in the 1970's.
>>
>> Agreed. That's the problem and challenge for the entire industry
>> including open source or not and part of reasons for people don't want
>> move forward.
>>
>> A side note: I disagree with what you said, "It's not the CFO that needs
>> to be convinced, it's the CIO, VP of IT and managers that need to be on
>> board. The CFO is just along for the ride".
>>
>> In well managed companies (e.g. with auditing systems), CFO will need to
>> be convinced (by CIO, in this case) before a major budget can be
>> allocated. But if we are talking about any company, well, anything can
>> and will happen.
>
> Well, if the CIO, VP of IT and the managers are making the case to the
> CFO who really knows nothing about the business needs, then what do you
> think is going to happen? People in those positions know how to play the
> game and present the case/business needs. It's a given. You think they are
> going to be turned down when they come as a collective group in this case?
>
> I have also seen it with the end-user base where the IT department back
> charged the end user departments for services rendered. The
> VP(s)/department heads that controlled the dollars for their respective
> departments wanted change to new technology such as .NET, which the IT
> department refused to go it. What do you think happened when those VP(s)
> of the departments came together and put the pressure on?
>
> Yeah, myself, my boss, and another developer put the business need case
> together for those VP(s), because most of the managers in charge were
> mainframe managers that controlled everything. And the VP(s) of the other
> departments in turn rammed the business case right down the VP of IT's
> throat. They got what was needed and what they wanted.
>
> One has to know how to play the game.
>
>
>
>

 

[Mr. Arnold]

Re: Vista Migration Scaring Off IT Pros


"xfile" <coucou@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:uTc6s58LIHA.5160@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...
>> Well, if the CIO, VP of IT and the managers are making the case to the
>> CFO who really knows nothing about the business needs, then what do you
>> think is going to happen? People in those positions know how to play the
>> game and present the case/business needs. It's a given. You think they
>> are going to be turned down when they come as a collective group in this
>> case?
>
> If that particular CFO doesn't know "business" needs, he/she shouldn't be
> in that position in the first place. However, it's not unusual for what
> seems to be "business" needs perceived by engineering dept. don't always
> address the true "business" needs.

Don't tell me, you should tell the business community.

>
> For illustration purpose only, what returns can .Net (or any other new
> technology) provide in dollars regardless of its technological
> advancements? Does it improve product's time-to-market so that the company
> will earn some extra dollars? Does it save maintenance fees in X amount
> of dollars? Does it help employees to process more orders within the same
> amount of time so the cost will go down and revenue per day will go up?
> These are some examples of business needs that a qualified CIO or CFO or
> line manager will and should ask. I am using those as examples because
> too many business needs are vague, such as improved performance or
> improved security.
>

Let's talk about the business needs with .Net when .Net technology allows a
company to develop Intranet solutions that can be used company wide across
the US and the company's plants and facilities around the global without
the need to deploy business solution across the company using Desktop
solutions. Let's talk about .Net Biz Talk Server that allows .Net solutions
Web based, Windows Desktop based or NT service and Console based to exchange
business data in XML format between mainframe solutions and MS solutions
within a company world wide.

Let's talk about how .Net by using a SOAP Web service can communicate with
other companies to exchange data between the company, which can be consumed
by a Web, Windows desktop, Console or NT Service application. Let's talk
about developing Web based solutions that internal user with in a company
can use and external users can use those same solutions. Let's talk about
how a Windows desktop application and Web based application can use the
in-hose written business with out the need to write the same solution for
both platforms.

The list is way too long as for the business needs of a company to use .NET
solutions both internally and externally.

> Finally, power struggle and fighting for limited resources are nothing new
> for any company. What you have experienced and witnessed are valid but
> they don't necessary represent the majority case nor as a way of operating
> and managing a business.


This is the type of companies I have worked for over the years. They set
their own rules and consider it just a cost to operate to do business. You
talk to them about how to manage a business not me.

<http://www.alibris.com/search/books/qwork/5553845/used/Rats%20in%20the%20Grain:%20The%20Dirty%20Tricks%20and%20Trials%20of%20Archer%20Daniels%20Midland>


And I have to be honest with you. I really have no interest in any debate.
You happened to post to me and I responded to you. I would just as soon drop
it, because it really doesn't mean anything in some NG.

 

[xfile]

Re: Vista Migration Scaring Off IT Pros

> Don't tell me, you should tell the business community.

I don't think business community, in general, failed to understand it
including technical professionals. It is a teamwork and everyone has
his/her specialties.


> Let's talk about the business needs with .Net when .Net technology allows
> a company to develop Intranet solutions that can be used company wide
> across the US and the company's plants and facilities around the global
> without the need to deploy business solution across the company using
> Desktop solutions. Let's talk about .Net Biz Talk Server that allows .Net
> solutions Web based, Windows Desktop based or NT service and Console based
> to exchange business data in XML format between mainframe solutions and MS
> solutions within a company world wide.
>
> Let's talk about how .Net by using a SOAP Web service can communicate
> with other companies to exchange data between the company, which can be
> consumed by a Web, Windows desktop, Console or NT Service application.
> Let's talk about developing Web based solutions that internal user with in
> a company can use and external users can use those same solutions. Let's
> talk about how a Windows desktop application and Web based application can
> use the in-hose written business with out the need to write the same
> solution for both platforms.
>

Those are truly good benefits, and I meant it. But at the end of the day,
one still has to put those into numbers so everyone could satisfy by their
pay raise, bonus check, dividends, and customer will appreciate faster and
more accurate service rate, delivery rate, lower price, so on?

Do you see the missing links?

As far as I am concerned, who is going to do it is less important than the
link has to be built to meet the justifications.

Well, my two cents.

"Mr. Arnold" <MR. Arnold@Arnold.com> wrote in message
news:uE2U649LIHA.2432@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...
>
> "xfile" <coucou@nospam.com> wrote in message
> news:uTc6s58LIHA.5160@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...
>>> Well, if the CIO, VP of IT and the managers are making the case to the
>>> CFO who really knows nothing about the business needs, then what do you
>>> think is going to happen? People in those positions know how to play the
>>> game and present the case/business needs. It's a given. You think they
>>> are going to be turned down when they come as a collective group in this
>>> case?
>>
>> If that particular CFO doesn't know "business" needs, he/she shouldn't be
>> in that position in the first place. However, it's not unusual for what
>> seems to be "business" needs perceived by engineering dept. don't always
>> address the true "business" needs.
>
> Don't tell me, you should tell the business community.
>
>>
>> For illustration purpose only, what returns can .Net (or any other new
>> technology) provide in dollars regardless of its technological
>> advancements? Does it improve product's time-to-market so that the
>> company will earn some extra dollars? Does it save maintenance fees in X
>> amount of dollars? Does it help employees to process more orders within
>> the same amount of time so the cost will go down and revenue per day will
>> go up? These are some examples of business needs that a qualified CIO or
>> CFO or line manager will and should ask. I am using those as examples
>> because too many business needs are vague, such as improved performance
>> or improved security.
>>
>
> Let's talk about the business needs with .Net when .Net technology allows
> a company to develop Intranet solutions that can be used company wide
> across the US and the company's plants and facilities around the global
> without the need to deploy business solution across the company using
> Desktop solutions. Let's talk about .Net Biz Talk Server that allows .Net
> solutions Web based, Windows Desktop based or NT service and Console based
> to exchange business data in XML format between mainframe solutions and MS
> solutions within a company world wide.
>
> Let's talk about how .Net by using a SOAP Web service can communicate
> with other companies to exchange data between the company, which can be
> consumed by a Web, Windows desktop, Console or NT Service application.
> Let's talk about developing Web based solutions that internal user with in
> a company can use and external users can use those same solutions. Let's
> talk about how a Windows desktop application and Web based application can
> use the in-hose written business with out the need to write the same
> solution for both platforms.
>
> The list is way too long as for the business needs of a company to use
> .NET solutions both internally and externally.
>
>> Finally, power struggle and fighting for limited resources are nothing
>> new for any company. What you have experienced and witnessed are valid
>> but they don't necessary represent the majority case nor as a way of
>> operating and managing a business.
>
>
> This is the type of companies I have worked for over the years. They set
> their own rules and consider it just a cost to operate to do business. You
> talk to them about how to manage a business not me.
>
> <http://www.alibris.com/search/books/qwork/5553845/used/Rats%20in%20the%20Grain:%20The%20Dirty%20Tricks%20and%20Trials%20of%20Archer%20Daniels%20Midland>
>
>
> And I have to be honest with you. I really have no interest in any debate.
> You happened to post to me and I responded to you. I would just as soon
> drop it, because it really doesn't mean anything in some NG.

 

[xfile]

Re: Vista Migration Scaring Off IT Pros

And I failed to respond the last part, yes, it's just discussion between the
two

Thanks.
"Mr. Arnold" <MR. Arnold@Arnold.com> wrote in message
news:uE2U649LIHA.2432@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...
>
> "xfile" <coucou@nospam.com> wrote in message
> news:uTc6s58LIHA.5160@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...
>>> Well, if the CIO, VP of IT and the managers are making the case to the
>>> CFO who really knows nothing about the business needs, then what do you
>>> think is going to happen? People in those positions know how to play the
>>> game and present the case/business needs. It's a given. You think they
>>> are going to be turned down when they come as a collective group in this
>>> case?
>>
>> If that particular CFO doesn't know "business" needs, he/she shouldn't be
>> in that position in the first place. However, it's not unusual for what
>> seems to be "business" needs perceived by engineering dept. don't always
>> address the true "business" needs.
>
> Don't tell me, you should tell the business community.
>
>>
>> For illustration purpose only, what returns can .Net (or any other new
>> technology) provide in dollars regardless of its technological
>> advancements? Does it improve product's time-to-market so that the
>> company will earn some extra dollars? Does it save maintenance fees in X
>> amount of dollars? Does it help employees to process more orders within
>> the same amount of time so the cost will go down and revenue per day will
>> go up? These are some examples of business needs that a qualified CIO or
>> CFO or line manager will and should ask. I am using those as examples
>> because too many business needs are vague, such as improved performance
>> or improved security.
>>
>
> Let's talk about the business needs with .Net when .Net technology allows
> a company to develop Intranet solutions that can be used company wide
> across the US and the company's plants and facilities around the global
> without the need to deploy business solution across the company using
> Desktop solutions. Let's talk about .Net Biz Talk Server that allows .Net
> solutions Web based, Windows Desktop based or NT service and Console based
> to exchange business data in XML format between mainframe solutions and MS
> solutions within a company world wide.
>
> Let's talk about how .Net by using a SOAP Web service can communicate
> with other companies to exchange data between the company, which can be
> consumed by a Web, Windows desktop, Console or NT Service application.
> Let's talk about developing Web based solutions that internal user with in
> a company can use and external users can use those same solutions. Let's
> talk about how a Windows desktop application and Web based application can
> use the in-hose written business with out the need to write the same
> solution for both platforms.
>
> The list is way too long as for the business needs of a company to use
> .NET solutions both internally and externally.
>
>> Finally, power struggle and fighting for limited resources are nothing
>> new for any company. What you have experienced and witnessed are valid
>> but they don't necessary represent the majority case nor as a way of
>> operating and managing a business.
>
>
> This is the type of companies I have worked for over the years. They set
> their own rules and consider it just a cost to operate to do business. You
> talk to them about how to manage a business not me.
>
> <http://www.alibris.com/search/books/qwork/5553845/used/Rats%20in%20the%20Grain:%20The%20Dirty%20Tricks%20and%20Trials%20of%20Archer%20Daniels%20Midland>
>
>
> And I have to be honest with you. I really have no interest in any debate.
> You happened to post to me and I responded to you. I would just as soon
> drop it, because it really doesn't mean anything in some NG.

 

[Mr. Arnold]

Re: Vista Migration Scaring Off IT Pros


"xfile" <coucou@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:uwZWOI%23LIHA.5468@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...
> And I failed to respond the last part, yes, it's just discussion between
> the two
>

Good night, I have to hit the door coding hard finishing up part of the .Net
solution before I move on to the next part of it, Monday.

 

[the wharf rat]

Re: Vista Migration Scaring Off IT Pros

In article <uE2U649LIHA.2432@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl>,
Mr. Arnold <MR. Arnold@Arnold.com> wrote:
>
>Let's talk about the business needs with .Net when .Net technology allows a
>company to develop Intranet solutions that can be used company wide across
>
>Let's talk about how .Net by using a SOAP Web service can communicate with
>other companies to exchange data between the company, which can be consumed

But I don't need .net for that.

In fact, right now I'm using Websphere.

 

[Charlie Tame]

Re: Vista Migration Scaring Off IT Pros

the wharf rat wrote:
> In article <uE2U649LIHA.2432@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl>,
> Mr. Arnold <MR. Arnold@Arnold.com> wrote:
>> Let's talk about the business needs with .Net when .Net technology allows a
>> company to develop Intranet solutions that can be used company wide across
>>
>> Let's talk about how .Net by using a SOAP Web service can communicate with
>> other companies to exchange data between the company, which can be consumed
>
> But I don't need .net for that.
>
> In fact, right now I'm using Websphere.
>


Well obviously there's a lot of personal bias involved - kinda says it
all really...

 

[the wharf rat]

Re: Vista Migration Scaring Off IT Pros

In article <eR1VGVAMIHA.2208@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl>,
Charlie Tame <charlie@tames.net> wrote:
>
>Well obviously there's a lot of personal bias involved - kinda says it
>all really...

Personal bias has nothing to do with it. The reasons given
previously are not reasons to use .net but rather reasons to use web
services.

What compelling reason is there to use .net rather than,
say, java or even coldfusion?

 

[Mr. Arnold]

Re: Vista Migration Scaring Off IT Pros


"the wharf rat" <wrat@panix.com> wrote in message
news:fie9so$2nl$1@reader1.panix.com...
> In article <eR1VGVAMIHA.2208@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl>,
> Charlie Tame <charlie@tames.net> wrote:
>>
>>Well obviously there's a lot of personal bias involved - kinda says it
>>all really...
>
> Personal bias has nothing to do with it. The reasons given
> previously are not reasons to use .net but rather reasons to use web
> services.
>
> What compelling reason is there to use .net rather than,
> say, java or even coldfusion?

What reason is there not to use .Net? And .Net is a standard sanctioned by
the ISO and ECMA. And on top of that .Net is more than just java or even
coldfusion with neither one of them being a standard. .Net is down to
running on cellular phones and even watches. And .Net is more than just
about the WEB solutions. That are many a .Net solutions in use or are being
developed that have nothing to do with the WEB.

http://www.dotnetpowered.com/languages.aspx

The CLI makes it so.

http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/netframework/Aa569283.aspx

Like I told you, you have no clue about .Net. MS doesn't even own .Net.

Now, you have become of no interest to me from this point forward.

 

[Mr. Arnold]

Re: Vista Migration Scaring Off IT Pros


"the wharf rat" <wrat@panix.com> wrote in message
news:fidur2$s9o$1@reader1.panix.com...
> In article <uE2U649LIHA.2432@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl>,
> Mr. Arnold <MR. Arnold@Arnold.com> wrote:
>>
>>Let's talk about the business needs with .Net when .Net technology allows
>>a
>>company to develop Intranet solutions that can be used company wide across
>>
>>Let's talk about how .Net by using a SOAP Web service can communicate
>>with
>>other companies to exchange data between the company, which can be
>>consumed
>
> But I don't need .net for that.
>
> In fact, right now I'm using Websphere.

Websphere? You're going to talk to me about Websphere, as if I don't know
about it? You are some kind of a clown. There is no doubt about that in my
eyes. You and that a$$ wipe Charlie Tame don't know jack is the bottom line
about any software development in any environment Web, desktop, otherwise,
IBM, MS, Apple, or Linux too with neither one of you clowns being software
developers. You and Tame are make believe soldiers/ wanabe software
developers. That's all the two of you are about. I know that neither one of
you have really put any serious dollars in your pockets doing software
development.

 

[SeriousShave]

Re: Vista Migration Scaring Off IT Pros


the wharf rat;3333418 Wrote:
> In article <eb0wpHrLIHA.4948@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl>,
> Mr. Arnold <MR. Arnold@Arnold.com> wrote:
> >
> >"Mr. Vista" <Mr. Vista@lhere.com> wrote in message
> >news:%2305DBbpLIHA.1204@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...
> >> http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1895,2219153,00.asp
> >>
> >
> ><snipped>
> >
> >I work in IT, and it's going to be the same thing that happened with
> IT when
> >they came from Windows DOS 6.22 and Windows 3.x to Win 9'x, Win 9'x
> to Win
> >NT 4.0, NT 4.0 to Win 2K, Win 2k to Win XP and now it's Vista. They
> are
> >going to go kicking and screaming, but the are going to go Vista.
> >
>
> Windows 3.11 to 95 was utterly painless. I needed few if any hardware
> changes and got very few help desk calls because of it. Likewise 95
> to
> 98 went smoothly. I had more problems moving people to 2000 because
> it
> was more like NT than it was like 95/98 and needed more hardware.
> (Very
> few desktop users ran NT.) We didn't upgrade to XP but simply run
> both
> platforms side by side to this day (in fact we have Apple users and one
> guy
> using... OS/2! Yes, really.)
>
> The big problem with moving to Vista is that because of that
> misconstructed DRM crap it really does require large hardware upgrades
> and lots of things don't work on it. Eventually I'll have to start
> because
> of the MS monopoly on the desktop, but here's an example of why I dread
> it
> more than I dreaded rewriting VAX Basic programs in Cobol.
>
> One of the managers told his administrative assistant to download
> and install the Office 2007 trial. It was so very different than the
> 2003
> she was used to that she couldn't work, and it took me 2 hours to get
> the
> machine back the way it was. I'm imagining that * 10,000...only
> there's
> no going back...

You must be one heck of an expert if it took you 2 hours to uninstall
Office 2007 and reinstall Office 2003.


--
SeriousShave
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[the wharf rat]

Re: Vista Migration Scaring Off IT Pros

In article <uSWYrVCMIHA.2140@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl>,
Mr. Arnold <MR. Arnold@Arnold.com> wrote:
>
>What reason is there not to use .Net?

I might not want to get tied to a proprietary platform that
removes any possibility of ever having any leverage with the vendor.
I might not want to run Windows Server because it doesn't scale well
horizontally (in fact, .net has issues with geographical scaling
because it's sensitive to network latency on distributed objects).
I might not be running on Intel hardware; .net doesn't run on Z/os.
Or Solaris.

There's lots of reasons why it might not be the best choice.


>And .Net is a standard sanctioned by

Well, about 10% of it is. The interconnect parts. That had to be
standardized to allow other vendor's web services to connect. Want to
show me the international standard for the JIT compiler?


>running on cellular phones and even watches. And .Net is more than just
>about the WEB solutions. That are many a .Net solutions in use or are being
>developed that have nothing to do with the WEB.
>
Guy, even MS claims that .net is a web services platform:

".NET is the Microsoft Web services strategy to connect information, people,
systems, and devices through software. Integrated across the Microsoft
platform," http://www.microsoft.com/net/basics.mspx

You're confusing web services with the Web you browse with IE.

>
>MS doesn't even own .Net.
>

Nonsense.

>Now, you have become of no interest to me from this point forward.

Well, ****, now yo've gone and plumb ruined my day. WhatEVER will
I do...

 

[the wharf rat]

Re: Vista Migration Scaring Off IT Pros

In article <##1Sm5EMIHA.3916@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl>,
Mr. Arnold <MR. Arnold@Arnold.com> wrote:
>
>Websphere? You're going to talk to me about Websphere, as if I don't know
>about it?

Well, what do you know about websphere? Why isn't websphere on linux
a good alternative to .net on windows?

>. You and that a$$ wipe Charlie Tame don't know jack is the bottom line
>about any software development in any environment Web, desktop, otherwise,
>IBM, MS, Apple, or Linux too with neither one of you clowns being software
>developers. You and Tame are make believe soldiers/ wanabe software
>developers.

Lol. You have no idea who you're talking to, do you?

 

[the wharf rat]

Re: Vista Migration Scaring Off IT Pros

In article <SeriousShave.30o6re@DoNotSpam.com>,
SeriousShave <SeriousShave.30o6re@DoNotSpam.com> wrote:
>
>You must be one heck of an expert if it took you 2 hours to uninstall
>Office 2007 and reinstall Office 2003.
>

It's harder than it looks. For instance, how would *you* recover
the original Office 2003 install key? It goes bye-bye with everything else
when you uninstall 2007. (Actually it might have been munged by the 2007
install, but I'll never know now.) Also it seems that the Office uninstall
leaves certain registry entries which cause the subsequent re-install to
fail with "not an upgrade" errors. And the few documents she opened and
accidentally saved were troublesome.

 

[Mr. Arnold]

Re: Vista Migration Scaring Off IT Pros


"the wharf rat" <wrat@panix.com> wrote in message
news:fif1cl$4dp$1@reader1.panix.com...
> In article <uSWYrVCMIHA.2140@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl>,
> Mr. Arnold <MR. Arnold@Arnold.com> wrote:
>>
>>What reason is there not to use .Net?
>
> I might not want to get tied to a proprietary platform that
> removes any possibility of ever having any leverage with the vendor.
> I might not want to run Windows Server because it doesn't scale well
> horizontally (in fact, .net has issues with geographical scaling
> because it's sensitive to network latency on distributed objects).
> I might not be running on Intel hardware; .net doesn't run on Z/os.
> Or Solaris.

LOL. It just something you have read. You have no expertise concening .NET.
>
> There's lots of reasons why it might not be the best choice.

Really? You no more know what you're talking about than the Man in the Moon,
because I have been in shops where the decision was made between going to
Java and .Net, and the decision was made to go to .Net.
>
>
>>And .Net is a standard sanctioned by
>
> Well, about 10% of it is. The interconnect parts. That had to be
> standardized to allow other vendor's web services to connect. Want to
> show me the international standard for the JIT compiler?

That's what it is about CLI, and you don't even know what you are talking
concering the CLI. Again, you have no idea as to what you're talking about.
>
>
>>running on cellular phones and even watches. And .Net is more than just
>>about the WEB solutions. That are many a .Net solutions in use or are
>>being
>>developed that have nothing to do with the WEB.
>>
> Guy, even MS claims that .net is a web services platform:
>
> ".NET is the Microsoft Web services strategy to connect information,
> people,
> systems, and devices through software. Integrated across the Microsoft
> platform," http://www.microsoft.com/net/basics.mspx

That's only one aspect of .Net. I am setting in the trenches, foxhole and on
the firing line with the technology, and you are not. And I know what .Net
can do. I am writing a .Net solution right now that's Windows Desktop based
that has nothing to do with the WEB period, which will be deployed to a
Ctrix terminal server farm.

>
> You're confusing web services with the Web you browse with IE.

I have written Web services that are used in N-Tier Architecture
applications with the marshalling of data between the Business Layer and
Data Access layer with the two phyiscal tiers that have nothing to do with a
brower. It's called code reuse where you deploy Web services on a Web
Server and anyone with in the Intranet (that's behind the FW if you don't
know that and I don't think you do) with any type of application such as a
Desktop, Console, NT Service or browser can consume the Web service, which
is only one aspect of .Net and can also go into communations with
application running on other platforms such as a mainframe and others that
have nothing the to do with HTTP other than using XML in the exchange of
data over TCP.
>
>>
>>MS doesn't even own .Net.
>>
>
> Nonsense.

The nonsense is on your part. MS gave .Net away. Not saying that MS may not
have a controlling interest with the CLI, but your boys Sun Microsystems
(who you threw up in my face with java and WebSphere ) has a vote and is on
the ISO and ECMA Standards committee along with several other leaders in
the industry that set forth what happens to the CLI.

>
>>Now, you have become of no interest to me from this point forward.
>
> Well, ****, now yo've gone and plumb ruined my day. WhatEVER will
> I do...

What you should do is don't post to me again about anything. You are an a$$
hole in the same boat with Albright, Tame, Alias the list is long of the a$$
holes such as yourself that frequent this NG.

I don't have time for a *clown* like you. That's one that thinks he knows it
all, you have not paid your dues, and you really don't know jack.

You are a clown beyond clowns is what you are.

You take your little BS wanabe (a program developer) lip service and you lip
service someone other than me. You should stick with DRM, because as far as
I am concerned, that's the only thing you seem to know something about.

 

[Mr. Arnold]

Re: Vista Migration Scaring Off IT Pros


"the wharf rat" <wrat@panix.com> wrote in message
news:fif1l1$1nf$1@reader1.panix.com...
>
> Lol. You have no idea who you're talking to, do you?
>

Yeah, I know exactly who I am talking to. I am talking to yesterday's,
today's and all days in the future *clown*. That's who I am talking to.