destorying the hard drive

[Jim Madsen]

Re: destorying the hard drive

Thanks for all the replies. Sorry about starting some debates.

Well, based upon the recommendations, I decided what we're going to do.

We will ***** --not tell you our decision.

BTW, at work we have that magnetic hard-drive destroyer (see I CAN spell
it right!). The first time they used it, it actually yanked the hard
drive out of the lady's hands. One lady in our IT department is afraid
of it, and refuses to go near it when it is operating.

Again, thanks for the advice. Good night

Jim

Jim Madsen wrote:
> My daughter has an old Gateway computer running Windows 98. She says no
> one wants it because it is slow and obsolete and she wants to turn it
> into the local recycling place.
>
> She is worried about (personal) data on the hard drive. I wonder if
> reformatting the HD will destroy all the data? My old W95 computer, I
> took the HD out and smashed it with a sledge hammer, but she doesn't
> want to do that.
>
> She took it to a computer store, and they offered to "hose" the HD and
> dispose of the computer for $50.00.
>
> Any suggestions?
>
> Jim

 

[rod]

Re: destorying the hard drive


"Jim Madsen"
> BTW, at work we have that magnetic hard-drive destroyer (see I CAN spell
> it right!).

Boo!
You should have left it so, I thought it a marvelous freudian slip.

 

[John John]

Re: destorying the hard drive

Lee wrote:

> Best advice yet is correct, but your advice on zero filled data is
> totally incorrect.

No, his advice is totally correct! I challenge you, or anyone reading
these groups, to offer concrete proof that they can recover zero
written/wiped files or to give us the names of data recovery firms who
can do it.

It cannot be done, it has never been done, no one has ever been able to
do it and no one has ever been able to offer a shred of evidence that
they have successfully recovered files on securely wiped disks.

John

 

[Jeff Richards]

Re: destorying the hard drive

Zero filling (or any form of overwriting) is sufficient to prevent recovery
by anyone without special hardware. The myth that special hardware is not
required might be due to cases where the OS 'optimised' the process to the
extent that nothing actually got written to disk, leaving some of the
original data intact. Hence my preference for DOS utilities to do the
overwriting, and preferably one that manages the drive controller for
itself, such as those that the disk drive manufacturers provide..
--
Jeff Richards
MS MVP (Windows - Shell/User)
"Franc Zabkar" <fzabkar@iinternode.on.net> wrote in message
news:ju76u3h2bgb56434tjisvjgfnt1ntj9ps5@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 20 Mar 2008 17:21:25 -0700 (PDT), Lee <melee5@my-deja.com> put
> finger to keyboard and composed:
>
>> ... your advice on zero filled data is
>>totally incorrect. Gary's cheap tools can recover this data even if
>>zero filled multiple times.
>
> How is it possible to recover data without the use of forensic tools?
> (I'm assuming that Gary doesn't have these.) Surely if a particular
> sector has been filled with zeroes, even if only once, then any time
> your OS reads this sector, your drive's uP will retrieve those exact
> same zeroes. I would think that in order to retrieve any previous
> data, you would need special access to the servo and to the read/write
> heads, and to bypass the uP's control of the drive.
>
> - Franc Zabkar
> --
> Please remove one 'i' from my address when replying by email.

 

[Bill in Co.]

Re: destorying the hard drive

Even as I said, if you do a Full format, I think you'll be hard pressed to
recover much, despite what Gary said. But I think Gary was thinking of
the Quick Format (and I don't consider that a real format).

John John wrote:
> Lee wrote:
>
>> Best advice yet is correct, but your advice on zero filled data is
>> totally incorrect.
>
> No, his advice is totally correct! I challenge you, or anyone reading
> these groups, to offer concrete proof that they can recover zero
> written/wiped files or to give us the names of data recovery firms who
> can do it.
>
> It cannot be done, it has never been done, no one has ever been able to
> do it and no one has ever been able to offer a shred of evidence that
> they have successfully recovered files on securely wiped disks.
>
> John

 

[Brian A.]

Re: destorying the hard drive

"Jim Madsen" <justme@nobody.com> wrote in message
news:%23UaP2wwiIHA.5820@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...
> Thanks for all the replies. Sorry about starting some debates.
>
> Well, based upon the recommendations, I decided what we're going to do.
>
> We will ***** --not tell you our decision.

Party pooper. <s>

>
> BTW, at work we have that magnetic hard-drive destroyer (see I CAN spell it
> right!). The first time they used it, it actually yanked the hard drive out of the
> lady's hands. One lady in our IT department is afraid of it, and refuses to go
> near it when it is operating.

They're called degaussers which put the magnetic domains in random patterns with no
orientation preference or alignment. Degaussing does not randomize the magnetic
alignment on magnetic domains that contain magnetic remnance.

>
> Again, thanks for the advice. Good night

You're welcome.

--


Brian A. Sesko { MS MVP_Windows Desktop User Experience }
Conflicts start where information lacks.
http://basconotw.mvps.org/

Suggested posting do's/don'ts: http://www.dts-l.org/goodpost.htm
How to ask a question: http://support.microsoft.com/kb/555375

 

[Fan924]

Re: destorying the hard drive

Download Western Digital's Data Lifeguard on floppy. Boot up on it and
you can overwrite 0's to the entire disc. Works great.

 

[dadiOH]

Re: destorying the hard drive

Bill in Co. wrote:
> Even as I said, if you do a Full format, I think you'll be hard
> pressed to recover much, despite what Gary said. But I think
> Gary was thinking of the Quick Format (and I don't consider that a
> real format).

There is no longer such a thing as a true "full format" of a hard
drive except the one done by the manufacturer originally. Certainly,
not one by Windows...a full format of even a smallish hard drive would
take many hours during which time the drive geometry - cylinders,
tracks - is laid out, tracks are numbered, the entire drive is written
with a byte pattern and verified.

If the OP wants to destroy everything on the drive - including all
intersector bytes - passing a magnet over it should do it.

--

dadiOH
____________________________

dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
....a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico

 

[dadiOH]

Re: destorying the hard drive

Jim Madsen wrote:
> My daughter has an old Gateway computer running Windows 98. She
> says no one wants it because it is slow and obsolete and she wants
> to turn it into the local recycling place.
>
> She is worried about (personal) data on the hard drive. I wonder if
> reformatting the HD will destroy all the data? My old W95
> computer, I took the HD out and smashed it with a sledge hammer,
> but she doesn't want to do that.
>
> She took it to a computer store, and they offered to "hose" the HD
> and dispose of the computer for $50.00.
>
> Any suggestions?


Pass a magnet back and forth over it.



--

dadiOH
____________________________

dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
....a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico

 

[Mike Y]

Re: destorying the hard drive

You need to do a couple of things.

First, reformat the drive. That removes all 'indexes' to the data that is
on there.
But it's still there and easily accessible to a hacker.

Now, some people say the 'disk test', if it works on a 'blank' area of the
media, will not save what it finds before the test, and it overwrites any
old
data, but I'm not sure and never tested that.

So, to clear that off, write a simple recursive copy routine that just
copies the
windows directory over and over to 'list' of directories named tar1, tar2,
tar3,
and so on. Eventually the drive will fill and error. Then del all the
tarxxxx
directories. By doing a 'copy', the data that used to be there is
overwritten
and generally not accessible except by analog recovery techniques. (Well,
ok, there ARE ways, but VERY few hackers even know about them!)

However... There is the possibility that in copying files, there could be
little
'snippets' of data in sectors that don't fill clusters. While not really
something to worry about, they could be there. If you're really paranoid,
write a program that actually treats the whole drive as 'data' and make sure
it fills each cluster. Have it use the same idea of subdirectories just to
make
it easy to manage.

Mike


"Jim Madsen" <justme@nobody.com> wrote in message
news:%23ks9OztiIHA.5280@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl...
> My daughter has an old Gateway computer running Windows 98. She says no
> one wants it because it is slow and obsolete and she wants to turn it
> into the local recycling place.
>
> She is worried about (personal) data on the hard drive. I wonder if
> reformatting the HD will destroy all the data? My old W95 computer, I
> took the HD out and smashed it with a sledge hammer, but she doesn't
> want to do that.
>
> She took it to a computer store, and they offered to "hose" the HD and
> dispose of the computer for $50.00.
>
> Any suggestions?
>
> Jim

 

[Mike Y]

Re: destorying the hard drive


"Franc Zabkar" <fzabkar@iinternode.on.net> wrote in message
news:fd46u3dcldjfh9n7d68rj9tekhqb5lcea6@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 20 Mar 2008 16:41:24 -0700, "Gary S. Terhune" <none> put
> finger to keyboard and composed:
>
> >Everything is still left there except the table of contents (FAT). All
> >FORMAT does is write a new FAT. But it's *easy* to recover data after a
> >format, ALL of the data. Hell, with RTT, I can recover significant data
from
> >20 formats back.
> >
> >And why *aren't* you talking about "special snoop programs"? I have a
very
> >good one and lots are sold for under $100. Why aren't you worried about
> >someone using one of those?
>
> Typing "help format" at the DOS prompt documents the function of
> several switches, including /U, which is supposed to "destroy all
> existing data":
>

I believe in that in 98 the U just means don't try to recover. I think it
still
makes calls to the 'verify' routine which isn't destructive to existing
data.

 

[Mike Y]

Re: destorying the hard drive


"Franc Zabkar" <fzabkar@iinternode.on.net> wrote in message
news:ju76u3h2bgb56434tjisvjgfnt1ntj9ps5@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 20 Mar 2008 17:21:25 -0700 (PDT), Lee <melee5@my-deja.com> put
> finger to keyboard and composed:
>
> > ... your advice on zero filled data is
> >totally incorrect. Gary's cheap tools can recover this data even if
> >zero filled multiple times.
>
> How is it possible to recover data without the use of forensic tools?
> (I'm assuming that Gary doesn't have these.) Surely if a particular
> sector has been filled with zeroes, even if only once, then any time
> your OS reads this sector, your drive's uP will retrieve those exact
> same zeroes. I would think that in order to retrieve any previous
> data, you would need special access to the servo and to the read/write
> heads, and to bypass the uP's control of the drive.
>
> - Franc Zabkar
> --
> Please remove one 'i' from my address when replying by email.

Special hardware can read overwritten data, but it's not normally available
to your script-kiddy hackers. There are multiple techniques, one of which
is looking for bit shifts...

 

[Mike Y]

Re: destorying the hard drive


"John John" <audetweld@nbnet.nb.ca> wrote in message
news:enRecXxiIHA.6084@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl...
> Lee wrote:
>
> > Best advice yet is correct, but your advice on zero filled data is
> > totally incorrect.
>
> No, his advice is totally correct! I challenge you, or anyone reading
> these groups, to offer concrete proof that they can recover zero
> written/wiped files or to give us the names of data recovery firms who
> can do it.
>
> It cannot be done, it has never been done, no one has ever been able to
> do it and no one has ever been able to offer a shred of evidence that
> they have successfully recovered files on securely wiped disks.
>
> John
>

Special hardware can could overwritten data. Either with an analog
analysis or looking for bit shifts. Don't get confused in thinking that
digital is digital, it's still an analog media...

 

[Davej]

Re: destorying the hard drive

On Mar 20, 5:36 pm, "Gary S. Terhune" <none> wrote:
> Not even smashing the thing with a sledge hammer will destroy the data.
>

If the disk is bent the data is unrecoverable by anyone without a full-
blown laboratory and a big budget. That is good enough, but reusing
the drive in another machine makes more sense.

 

[Gary S. Terhune]

Re: destorying the hard drive

I was being factual: I don't know who the girl is worried about, what the
information is worth, and thus can't tell just how much money they might be
willing to spend. We don't know what the recycler does with the HDs.
Probably melts them, but what do I know? Throw a HD into the morning trash
and it's very likely to never see the light of day again, to undergo the
same melting when the landfill pile is mass recycled -- unless someone is
stalking you. Then you got problems. I'm paranoid, so I do zero-wipes on
dead HDs but am also developing a pile in the corner of the shed and am in
the market for a mass-destructor magnet.

--
Gary S. Terhune
MS-MVP Shell/User
www.grystmill.com

"Davej" <galt_57@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:34e37af9-d4a2-4d53-bbdf-2a6193600cc4@f63g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
> On Mar 20, 5:36 pm, "Gary S. Terhune" <none> wrote:
>> Not even smashing the thing with a sledge hammer will destroy the data.
>>
>
> If the disk is bent the data is unrecoverable by anyone without a full-
> blown laboratory and a big budget. That is good enough, but reusing
> the drive in another machine makes more sense.

 

[Gary S. Terhune]

Re: destorying the hard drive

To add to this sub-thread, it is my understanding that the tools I'm
referring to cannot recover data from under "zero-fill". Takes special
equipment to read vagaries in magnetic layers at the molecular level. I was
referring only to drives that had been formatted, and in some cases
formatted multiple times (20 or more). FORMATTING, even a Thorough format,
does not destroy data and the data not destroyed is easy to cover, even
several formats deep. Even, I'll venture, after a "low-level" format.

Now, the more you overwrite data during normal daily use, the less is
recoverable later on. Twenty formats deep will yield some gems, but mostly
buried deep in the most esoteric poetry you can find.

--
Gary S. Terhune
MS-MVP Shell/User
www.grystmill.com

"Lee" <melee5@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:bce17331-9666-4b2f-b393-0895d58410b6@a1g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
On Mar 20, 6:05 pm, "philo" <ph...@privacy.net> wrote:
> "Franc Zabkar" <fzab...@iinternode.on.net> wrote in message
>
> news:9ur5u3l0qbdnqh4pjnu8s4om84jvgkmm98@4ax.com...
>
>
>
> > On Thu, 20 Mar 2008 16:48:40 -0600, Jim Madsen <jus...@nobody.com> put
> > finger to keyboard and composed:
>
> > >My daughter has an old Gateway computer running Windows 98. She says no
> > >one wants it because it is slow and obsolete and she wants to turn it
> > >into the local recycling place.
>
> > >She is worried about (personal) data on the hard drive. I wonder if
> > >reformatting the HD will destroy all the data? My old W95 computer, I
> > >took the HD out and smashed it with a sledge hammer, but she doesn't
> > >want to do that.
>
> > >She took it to a computer store, and they offered to "hose" the HD and
> > >dispose of the computer for $50.00.
>
> > >Any suggestions?
>
> > >Jim
>
> > Use a "zero fill" utility, eg ...
>
> http://www.seagate.com/ww/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=65a8783c970ce010VgnVC...
>
>
>
> > - Franc Zabkar
>
> This is the best advice yet.
>
> If the drive is zero filled...not only is the data gone...
> it cannot be recovered.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Best advice yet is correct, but your advice on zero filled data is
totally incorrect. Gary's cheap tools can recover this data even if
zero filled multiple times.

For the average guy, zero filling is about as far as one needs to go.
Bart's free Disktool will do this and also overwrite the disk with
test patterns over and over just to be double sure the average guy is
not going to be able to recover your credit card number for example -
but it can still be done by those with the more expensive tools.
http://www.nu2.nu/utils/

 

[Gary S. Terhune]

Re: destorying the hard drive

That's my understanding, but I'll just have to test. Don't hold your breath.

--
Gary S. Terhune
MS-MVP Shell/User
www.grystmill.com

"Mike Y" <joe@user.com> wrote in message
news:vuLEj.82$qi6.19@newsfe05.lga...
>
> "Franc Zabkar" <fzabkar@iinternode.on.net> wrote in message
> news:fd46u3dcldjfh9n7d68rj9tekhqb5lcea6@4ax.com...
>> On Thu, 20 Mar 2008 16:41:24 -0700, "Gary S. Terhune" <none> put
>> finger to keyboard and composed:
>>
>> >Everything is still left there except the table of contents (FAT). All
>> >FORMAT does is write a new FAT. But it's *easy* to recover data after a
>> >format, ALL of the data. Hell, with RTT, I can recover significant data
> from
>> >20 formats back.
>> >
>> >And why *aren't* you talking about "special snoop programs"? I have a
> very
>> >good one and lots are sold for under $100. Why aren't you worried about
>> >someone using one of those?
>>
>> Typing "help format" at the DOS prompt documents the function of
>> several switches, including /U, which is supposed to "destroy all
>> existing data":
>>
>
> I believe in that in 98 the U just means don't try to recover. I think it
> still
> makes calls to the 'verify' routine which isn't destructive to existing
> data.
>
>

 

[Gary S. Terhune]

Re: destorying the hard drive

You're wrong. All "full" FORMAT (not "quick") does is a quick format
(zero-out FATS) and then tests the disk for unreadable clusters. Unless to
try to recover those clusters, it performs no other "repairs".

--
Gary S. Terhune
MS-MVP Shell/User
www.grystmill.com

"Bill in Co." <not_really_here@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:uRDDPFwiIHA.4468@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...
> No, I don't think that is true for a regular full format.
>
> Gary S. Terhune wrote:
>> Everything is still left there except the table of contents (FAT). All
>> FORMAT does is write a new FAT. But it's *easy* to recover data after a
>> format, ALL of the data. Hell, with RTT, I can recover significant data
>> from
>> 20 formats back.
>>
>> And why *aren't* you talking about "special snoop programs"? I have a
>> very
>> good one and lots are sold for under $100. Why aren't you worried about
>> someone using one of those?
>>
>> --
>> Gary S. Terhune
>> MS-MVP Shell/User
>> www.grystmill.com
>>
>> "Bill in Co." <not_really_here@earthlink.net> wrote in message
>> news:%23bMCBKuiIHA.3448@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...
>>> Come again? (And no, I'm not talking about someone using special
>>> snoop
>>> programs). If you boot up on a DOS floppy, and do a format c: ,
>>> what's
>>> really left there?
>>>
>>> Gary S. Terhune wrote:
>>>> No, it won't. Not even close.
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Gary S. Terhune
>>>> MS-MVP Shell/User
>>>> www.grystmill.com
>>>>
>>>> "Bill in Co." <not_really_here@earthlink.net> wrote in message
>>>> news:ubjMS1tiIHA.4712@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...
>>>>> Reformatting it will destroy all the data.
>>>>>
>>>>> Jim Madsen wrote:
>>>>>> My daughter has an old Gateway computer running Windows 98. She says
>>>>>> no
>>>>>> one wants it because it is slow and obsolete and she wants to turn it
>>>>>> into the local recycling place.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> She is worried about (personal) data on the hard drive. I wonder if
>>>>>> reformatting the HD will destroy all the data? My old W95 computer,
>>>>>> I
>>>>>> took the HD out and smashed it with a sledge hammer, but she doesn't
>>>>>> want to do that.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> She took it to a computer store, and they offered to "hose" the HD
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> dispose of the computer for $50.00.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Any suggestions?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Jim
>
>

 

[Gary S. Terhune]

Re: destorying the hard drive

You're wrong. Full format has no effect on the data. Full format is Quick
format followed by a cluster integrity check, no more.

--
Gary S. Terhune
MS-MVP Shell/User
www.grystmill.com

"Bill in Co." <not_really_here@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:uNue8uxiIHA.4740@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...
> Even as I said, if you do a Full format, I think you'll be hard pressed to
> recover much, despite what Gary said. But I think Gary was thinking of
> the Quick Format (and I don't consider that a real format).
>
> John John wrote:
>> Lee wrote:
>>
>>> Best advice yet is correct, but your advice on zero filled data is
>>> totally incorrect.
>>
>> No, his advice is totally correct! I challenge you, or anyone reading
>> these groups, to offer concrete proof that they can recover zero
>> written/wiped files or to give us the names of data recovery firms who
>> can do it.
>>
>> It cannot be done, it has never been done, no one has ever been able to
>> do it and no one has ever been able to offer a shred of evidence that
>> they have successfully recovered files on securely wiped disks.
>>
>> John
>
>

 

[Gary S. Terhune]

Re: destorying the hard drive

What you describe is a "low-level" format, not a "full" format.

--
Gary S. Terhune
MS-MVP Shell/User
www.grystmill.com

"dadiOH" <dadiOH@guesswhere.com> wrote in message
news:ei9JBrziIHA.5504@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...
> Bill in Co. wrote:
>> Even as I said, if you do a Full format, I think you'll be hard
>> pressed to recover much, despite what Gary said. But I think
>> Gary was thinking of the Quick Format (and I don't consider that a
>> real format).
>
> There is no longer such a thing as a true "full format" of a hard
> drive except the one done by the manufacturer originally. Certainly,
> not one by Windows...a full format of even a smallish hard drive would
> take many hours during which time the drive geometry - cylinders,
> tracks - is laid out, tracks are numbered, the entire drive is written
> with a byte pattern and verified.
>
> If the OP wants to destroy everything on the drive - including all
> intersector bytes - passing a magnet over it should do it.
>
> --
>
> dadiOH
> ____________________________
>
> dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
> ...a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
> LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
> Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico
>
>
>