Windows Vista I don't hate Vista

  • Thread starter Thread starter Nogginsaked
  • Start date Start date
Re: I don't hate Vista



"xfile" <coucou@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:u3SjWxSqIHA.524@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...
> Me neither. I just feel disappointed.
>
>> For all users Vista presents an arbitrary change in interface and an
>> arbitrary change in the way to perform familiar tasks, not better or
>> worse but arbitrarily different.
>
> Many people claimed that this is subject to individual's preference, but
> in this case, it's more than that.
>
> For enthusiasts, hobbyists, and people who make a living by
> teaching/helping other users, this might be a good change, and perhaps, a
> welcome opportunity to demonstrate their new skills and knowledge. For
> those who don't care much about anything and everything, this change
> doesn't affect them as any other things in the world.
>
> For ROI-oriented persons and decision makers, this is one of the largest
> cost elements for adoption, and worst of all, it is almost impossible to
> accurately estimate the learning cost due to it is on an ongoing basis.
> This arbitrary change also helps those IT departments that have not had
> enough user complaints (I wonder how many) to have more than they
> deserved.
>
> An additional benefit is to evoke the user's sleeping consideration sets
> and ask, if I have to spend so much efforts on learning the new OS, will
> it be better for me to seek for an alternative solution?
>
> In my personal view, this is one of the worst design decisions made for
> the product. If it helps to reduce the numbers of clicks, scrolls, eye
> and hand movements, and the use of commands, it would be a totally
> different story. But it doesn't and based on my own experience and what I
> have read, it requires even more use of commands.
>
> The irony is that Linux is moving toward GUI, and at the same time,
> Windows is moving toward using more commands.
>
> No, I don't hate Vista nor MS; I just don't believe that this is their
> product.
>
>
>
> "Nogginsaked" <fac_187@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:43402C14-40A8-4B1B-8F85-1F9CD0B5C1F1@microsoft.com...
>>I don't hate Vista but except for change for its own sake I cannot
>>conceive why anyone would change from a stable XP desktop or network to
>>Vista.
>> For all users Vista presents an arbitrary change in interface and an
>> arbitrary change in the way to perform familiar tasks, not better or
>> worse but arbitrarily different. For all users the UAC is as useless as
>> an Orange Terror Threat Alert and for all users hardware performance will
>> be time-by-watching-paint-dry slower under Vista/VSP1.
>> If you are running a large network with users of dubious skill then
>> re-educating people who can barely use XP is a nightmare, not to mention
>> the seemingly unsolvable networking oddities of Vista and ongoing
>> deficiencies in peripheral drivers.
>> Large companies, and I run a small one, can do the math: replacing
>> perfectly functional boxes just so they can run a different OS to perform
>> the exact same software tasks makes no economic sense, less so in a
>> recession and doubly less so if you are moving to web based applications.
>> Why replace boxes just to run a different OS when the hardware demands of
>> your business software do not require the upgrade?
>> I suggest that Microsoft push out a new version of XP that has the aero
>> interface if desired (Windows Live on XP has see through tops), allows
>> users to retain any interface features they like about Vista (if any) and
>> call it Vista SP2.
>
>


I personally don't see a need for anyone, businesses included, to
migrate to Vista if there is no need to do so. If you're happy with your
current OS, and migrating to Vista will offer you no advantages other than
security, why do so?

C.B.


--
It is the responsibility and duty of everyone to help the underprivileged
and unfortunate among us.
 
Re: I don't hate Vista

I agree with you. However, migrating to an improved version is part of the
progress, if the cost is justifiable even not totally.

Vista is a special case in which it has produced nothing but troubles for
many businesses and consumers including placing special orders for the other
OS and/or exercising the downgrade right.

I understand that this is not an official channel for feedbacks and I have
no interests in participating in their official feedback programs as now MS
is the largest software company not a start-up company. I do however share
some of my thoughts (which may not be correct) in hope that they realize
what are going on.



"C.B." <notreallyc.b.mullen@windowslive.com> wrote in message
news:ewY2fxVqIHA.4928@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...
>
>
> "xfile" <coucou@nospam.com> wrote in message
> news:u3SjWxSqIHA.524@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...
>> Me neither. I just feel disappointed.
>>
>>> For all users Vista presents an arbitrary change in interface and an
>>> arbitrary change in the way to perform familiar tasks, not better or
>>> worse but arbitrarily different.
>>
>> Many people claimed that this is subject to individual's preference, but
>> in this case, it's more than that.
>>
>> For enthusiasts, hobbyists, and people who make a living by
>> teaching/helping other users, this might be a good change, and perhaps, a
>> welcome opportunity to demonstrate their new skills and knowledge. For
>> those who don't care much about anything and everything, this change
>> doesn't affect them as any other things in the world.
>>
>> For ROI-oriented persons and decision makers, this is one of the largest
>> cost elements for adoption, and worst of all, it is almost impossible to
>> accurately estimate the learning cost due to it is on an ongoing basis.
>> This arbitrary change also helps those IT departments that have not had
>> enough user complaints (I wonder how many) to have more than they
>> deserved.
>>
>> An additional benefit is to evoke the user's sleeping consideration sets
>> and ask, if I have to spend so much efforts on learning the new OS, will
>> it be better for me to seek for an alternative solution?
>>
>> In my personal view, this is one of the worst design decisions made for
>> the product. If it helps to reduce the numbers of clicks, scrolls, eye
>> and hand movements, and the use of commands, it would be a totally
>> different story. But it doesn't and based on my own experience and what I
>> have read, it requires even more use of commands.
>>
>> The irony is that Linux is moving toward GUI, and at the same time,
>> Windows is moving toward using more commands.
>>
>> No, I don't hate Vista nor MS; I just don't believe that this is their
>> product.
>>
>>
>>
>> "Nogginsaked" <fac_187@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:43402C14-40A8-4B1B-8F85-1F9CD0B5C1F1@microsoft.com...
>>>I don't hate Vista but except for change for its own sake I cannot
>>>conceive why anyone would change from a stable XP desktop or network to
>>>Vista.
>>> For all users Vista presents an arbitrary change in interface and an
>>> arbitrary change in the way to perform familiar tasks, not better or
>>> worse but arbitrarily different. For all users the UAC is as useless as
>>> an Orange Terror Threat Alert and for all users hardware performance
>>> will be time-by-watching-paint-dry slower under Vista/VSP1.
>>> If you are running a large network with users of dubious skill then
>>> re-educating people who can barely use XP is a nightmare, not to mention
>>> the seemingly unsolvable networking oddities of Vista and ongoing
>>> deficiencies in peripheral drivers.
>>> Large companies, and I run a small one, can do the math: replacing
>>> perfectly functional boxes just so they can run a different OS to
>>> perform the exact same software tasks makes no economic sense, less so
>>> in a recession and doubly less so if you are moving to web based
>>> applications. Why replace boxes just to run a different OS when the
>>> hardware demands of your business software do not require the upgrade?
>>> I suggest that Microsoft push out a new version of XP that has the aero
>>> interface if desired (Windows Live on XP has see through tops), allows
>>> users to retain any interface features they like about Vista (if any)
>>> and call it Vista SP2.
>>
>>
>
>
> I personally don't see a need for anyone, businesses included, to
> migrate to Vista if there is no need to do so. If you're happy with your
> current OS, and migrating to Vista will offer you no advantages other than
> security, why do so?
>
> C.B.
>
>
> --
> It is the responsibility and duty of everyone to help the underprivileged
> and unfortunate among us.
 
Re: I don't hate Vista

The willingness demonstrated by users like you to accept a defective product
is the reason Bill Gates and his merry men do things the way they do.

If you bought a new car and GM or Ford said "We know the brakes don't work
and neither does reverse, but hang in there and we'll eventually issue fixes
for those problems", how long would you stand for it? Why should M$ be held
to a lower standard by consumers than any other provider of any other
product?

Buddha

"Nogginsaked" <fac_187@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:43402C14-40A8-4B1B-8F85-1F9CD0B5C1F1@microsoft.com...
>I don't hate Vista but except for change for its own sake I cannot conceive
>why anyone would change from a stable XP desktop or network to Vista.
> For all users Vista presents an arbitrary change in interface and an
> arbitrary change in the way to perform familiar tasks, not better or worse
> but arbitrarily different. For all users the UAC is as useless as an
> Orange Terror Threat Alert and for all users hardware performance will be
> time-by-watching-paint-dry slower under Vista/VSP1.
> If you are running a large network with users of dubious skill then
> re-educating people who can barely use XP is a nightmare, not to mention
> the seemingly unsolvable networking oddities of Vista and ongoing
> deficiencies in peripheral drivers.
> Large companies, and I run a small one, can do the math: replacing
> perfectly functional boxes just so they can run a different OS to perform
> the exact same software tasks makes no economic sense, less so in a
> recession and doubly less so if you are moving to web based applications.
> Why replace boxes just to run a different OS when the hardware demands of
> your business software do not require the upgrade?
> I suggest that Microsoft push out a new version of XP that has the aero
> interface if desired (Windows Live on XP has see through tops), allows
> users to retain any interface features they like about Vista (if any) and
> call it Vista SP2.
 
Re: I don't hate Vista

C.B. wrote:
>
>
> "Lang Murphy" <langmurf@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
> news:%xeRj.23968$3v1.3928@bignews3.bellsouth.net...
>> C.B. wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> "Nogginsaked" <fac_187@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>> news:43402C14-40A8-4B1B-8F85-1F9CD0B5C1F1@microsoft.com...
>>>> I don't hate Vista but except for change for its own sake I cannot
>>>> conceive why anyone would change from a stable XP desktop or network
>>>> to Vista.
>>>> For all users Vista presents an arbitrary change in interface and an
>>>> arbitrary change in the way to perform familiar tasks, not better or
>>>> worse but arbitrarily different. For all users the UAC is as useless
>>>> as an Orange Terror Threat Alert and for all users hardware
>>>> performance will be time-by-watching-paint-dry slower under Vista/VSP1.
>>>> If you are running a large network with users of dubious skill then
>>>> re-educating people who can barely use XP is a nightmare, not to
>>>> mention the seemingly unsolvable networking oddities of Vista and
>>>> ongoing deficiencies in peripheral drivers.
>>>> Large companies, and I run a small one, can do the math: replacing
>>>> perfectly functional boxes just so they can run a different OS to
>>>> perform the exact same software tasks makes no economic sense, less
>>>> so in a recession and doubly less so if you are moving to web based
>>>> applications. Why replace boxes just to run a different OS when the
>>>> hardware demands of your business software do not require the upgrade?
>>>> I suggest that Microsoft push out a new version of XP that has the
>>>> aero interface if desired (Windows Live on XP has see through tops),
>>>> allows users to retain any interface features they like about Vista
>>>> (if any) and call it Vista SP2.
>>>
>>>
>>> I like Vista. You don't like Vista. You made your choice and I
>>> made mine. The reasons I like and prefer to use Vista as opposed to
>>> XP are, quite frankly, none of your business.
>>>
>>> C.B.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Well... that's kind of an odd response. You like Vista but you're
>> unwilling to disclose why? That's just... odd.
>>
>> This coming from a guy happily running Vista on three Dells and one
>> Mac. So, no, I'm not a Vista fanti-boi. Not at all.
>>
>> Lang
>
>
> I've disclosed my reasons in numerous posts over the past 14 months,
> and yes, I'm happily running Vista on my newest machine. I've never
> stated I was running Vista on four machines because that is not the
> case. I'm running XP on the other three machines. I've never stated I am
> using a Mac.
> You need to get your facts straight. Are you new to this newsgroup?
> Have you seen any of the previous posts? Your response indicates that
> you have not.
> As for Nogginsaked, he received the response he deserved. When I
> respond to a post my response is directly related to and proportional to
> the attitude of the original poster.
> I am not a fanboy, or in your words, a fanti-boy of Windows or
> anything Microsoft. I have criticized Microsoft and the Windows OS on
> many occasions. I also applaud and defend those who choose to use a Mac
> and any other Linux based OS. It's their choice to make and I respect
> their choice, unlike the Windows bashers and Microsoft haters.
>
> C.B.
>
>

No... you need to lighten up... "This coming from a guy..." referred to
me, not you. Notice the "So, no, I'm..." statement.

Lang
 
Re: I don't hate Vista

Synapse Syndrome wrote:
> "Lang Murphy" <langmurf@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
> news:%xeRj.23968$3v1.3928@bignews3.bellsouth.net...
>>> I like Vista. You don't like Vista. You made your choice and I made
>>> mine. The reasons I like and prefer to use Vista as opposed to XP are,
>>> quite frankly, none of your business.
>>>
>> Well... that's kind of an odd response. You like Vista but you're
>> unwilling to disclose why? That's just... odd.
>
>
> Maybe he's too embarrassed to tell people about his fascination with 3D
> Flip!
>
> ss.
>
>

Or the Ubuntu guys who use some third party app lets them move between
virtual desktops in a cube like thang. (Only read about it... so not
sure how it works.) Point being; trash Vista's graphics as eye candy
then claim Ubuntu beats it anyway. Hmm...

Lang
 
Re: I don't hate Vista

Well, I have to say that if I had been given a choice back in November when I got my new laptop whether to get it with XP or Vista, I'd have chosen XP, hands down. But once you tweak Vista, turn off all the administrative BS that a single user does not need (yes, the damn UAC!), clean up the start up programs list, unload all the extra crap, Vista isn't so bad. It seems to work OK and has some nice features that XP lacked (some of the Control Panel features and tools, the Recovery Manager Console, Partition Wizard, etc.). The IE7 is nice, even if it still tends to crash now and then and doesn't want to load some pages (I use Firefox as my default and only go to IE7 when I have to), the WinMail is OK and basically a clone of Outlook Express with some extras, and the security seems to be better, if a bit annoying at times. For me, I don't depend on Vista build-in security that much and use a third party security suite (McAfee) and if you want a more feature filled mail program, I highly recommend Windows Live Mail (freebie companion to the Windows Live Messenger and SkyDrive MySpace look alike).

I have dumped the Aero thingy and gone to a classic desktop seem so I have pretty much turned my Vista HP SP1 into a XP clone with extras. Works Ok for me. Still, I have to admit that Vista, compared to XP, uses up a lot of RAM and resources, HD space and it boots slower (even with a cleaned up startup menu) and in general is slower than XP. But then my new laptop has a Core 2 Duo at 2.2Mhz which helps compensate for the slower operation. The 1 GB RAM in my old XP laptop had to be 2 GB RAM for my new Vista system and even then I have already gotten the chips to max it out to 4 GB ram.
]
And while there has been some compatibility problems with third part programs that ran OK under XP but don't work well with Vista or have minor bugs (Norton SS 2008, Word Perfect 3X, and some others), those problems are slowly being resolved and most software publishers are making Vista compatible programs available now.

So that's the story, for me on XP vs. Vista. Vista's plug and play hardware is pretty good and the driver update is also a good thing over XP. As for the slow boot up speed, it's not that slow and beside, with Vista I usually don't shut down at all (running on wall power all the time) so when I want to stop computing for the day, I just put her into SLEEP mode so it wakes up pretty fast.

That help resolve your question? A lot of it is matter of preference and choice and like XP, it will get better with updates. SP1 did a lot to fix some problems. IE7 still needs a lot of work. Looking forward to the IE8. In the mean time I'm happy with Firefox 2.04.
Bob, Still Old, Still Grey, And Still A Woolf


No trees were harmed in the sending of this message and a very large number of electrons were asked their permission to be terribly inconvenienced. And a party was thrown for them afterwards for being really cool about it.

Bob's Space - Home Page of the Olde Greywoolf


http://oldegreywoolf.spaces.live.com/
"xfile" <coucou@nospam.com> wrote in message news:ewPutXbqIHA.4476@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...
I agree with you. However, migrating to an improved version is part of the
progress, if the cost is justifiable even not totally.

Vista is a special case in which it has produced nothing but troubles for
many businesses and consumers including placing special orders for the other
OS and/or exercising the downgrade right.

I understand that this is not an official channel for feedbacks and I have
no interests in participating in their official feedback programs as now MS
is the largest software company not a start-up company. I do however share
some of my thoughts (which may not be correct) in hope that they realize
what are going on.



"C.B." <notreallyc.b.mullen@windowslive.com> wrote in message
news:ewY2fxVqIHA.4928@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...
>
>
> "xfile" <coucou@nospam.com> wrote in message
> news:u3SjWxSqIHA.524@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...
>> Me neither. I just feel disappointed.
>>
>>> For all users Vista presents an arbitrary change in interface and an
>>> arbitrary change in the way to perform familiar tasks, not better or
>>> worse but arbitrarily different.
>>
>> Many people claimed that this is subject to individual's preference, but
>> in this case, it's more than that.
>>
>> For enthusiasts, hobbyists, and people who make a living by
>> teaching/helping other users, this might be a good change, and perhaps, a
>> welcome opportunity to demonstrate their new skills and knowledge. For
>> those who don't care much about anything and everything, this change
>> doesn't affect them as any other things in the world.
>>
>> For ROI-oriented persons and decision makers, this is one of the largest
>> cost elements for adoption, and worst of all, it is almost impossible to
>> accurately estimate the learning cost due to it is on an ongoing basis.
>> This arbitrary change also helps those IT departments that have not had
>> enough user complaints (I wonder how many) to have more than they
>> deserved.
>>
>> An additional benefit is to evoke the user's sleeping consideration sets
>> and ask, if I have to spend so much efforts on learning the new OS, will
>> it be better for me to seek for an alternative solution?
>>
>> In my personal view, this is one of the worst design decisions made for
>> the product. If it helps to reduce the numbers of clicks, scrolls, eye
>> and hand movements, and the use of commands, it would be a totally
>> different story. But it doesn't and based on my own experience and what I
>> have read, it requires even more use of commands.
>>
>> The irony is that Linux is moving toward GUI, and at the same time,
>> Windows is moving toward using more commands.
>>
>> No, I don't hate Vista nor MS; I just don't believe that this is their
>> product.
>>
>>
>>
>> "Nogginsaked" <fac_187@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:43402C14-40A8-4B1B-8F85-1F9CD0B5C1F1@microsoft.com...
>>>I don't hate Vista but except for change for its own sake I cannot
>>>conceive why anyone would change from a stable XP desktop or network to
>>>Vista.
>>> For all users Vista presents an arbitrary change in interface and an
>>> arbitrary change in the way to perform familiar tasks, not better or
>>> worse but arbitrarily different. For all users the UAC is as useless as
>>> an Orange Terror Threat Alert and for all users hardware performance
>>> will be time-by-watching-paint-dry slower under Vista/VSP1.
>>> If you are running a large network with users of dubious skill then
>>> re-educating people who can barely use XP is a nightmare, not to mention
>>> the seemingly unsolvable networking oddities of Vista and ongoing
>>> deficiencies in peripheral drivers.
>>> Large companies, and I run a small one, can do the math: replacing
>>> perfectly functional boxes just so they can run a different OS to
>>> perform the exact same software tasks makes no economic sense, less so
>>> in a recession and doubly less so if you are moving to web based
>>> applications. Why replace boxes just to run a different OS when the
>>> hardware demands of your business software do not require the upgrade?
>>> I suggest that Microsoft push out a new version of XP that has the aero
>>> interface if desired (Windows Live on XP has see through tops), allows
>>> users to retain any interface features they like about Vista (if any)
>>> and call it Vista SP2.
>>
>>
>
>
> I personally don't see a need for anyone, businesses included, to
> migrate to Vista if there is no need to do so. If you're happy with your
> current OS, and migrating to Vista will offer you no advantages other than
> security, why do so?
>
> C.B.
>
>
> --
> It is the responsibility and duty of everyone to help the underprivileged
> and unfortunate among us.
 
Re: I don't hate Vista

Buddha wrote:

> The willingness demonstrated by users like you to accept a defective
> product
> is the reason Bill Gates and his merry men do things the way they do.
>
> If you bought a new car and GM or Ford said "We know the brakes don't work
> and neither does reverse, but hang in there and we'll eventually issue
> fixes
> for those problems", how long would you stand for it? Why should M$ be
> held
> to a lower standard by consumers than any other provider of any other
> product?
>
> Buddha

Did you write that diatribe all by yourself bubba?
Frank
 
Re: I don't hate Vista

Yes.
"Frank" <fab@notspam.com> wrote in message news:O4uxTkbqIHA.1164@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...
Buddha wrote:

> The willingness demonstrated by users like you to accept a defective
> product
> is the reason Bill Gates and his merry men do things the way they do.
>
> If you bought a new car and GM or Ford said "We know the brakes don't work
> and neither does reverse, but hang in there and we'll eventually issue
> fixes
> for those problems", how long would you stand for it? Why should M$ be
> held
> to a lower standard by consumers than any other provider of any other
> product?
>
> Buddha

Did you write that diatribe all by yourself bubba?
Frank
 
Re: I don't hate Vista

Hi,

Thanks for sharing and I'm glad that it works for you :) I never challenged
anyone who likes Vista (or any other product for the matter) and admire
those who have the patience and willingness to go through all those
tweaking. It's just that most regular users are not in the groups of geeks,
techies, and so on.

My two cents though.


"Bob W" <ogwoolf@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:eeBKKhbqIHA.2492@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl...
Well, I have to say that if I had been given a choice back in November when
I got my new laptop whether to get it with XP or Vista, I'd have chosen XP,
hands down. But once you tweak Vista, turn off all the administrative BS
that a single user does not need (yes, the damn UAC!), clean up the start up
programs list, unload all the extra crap, Vista isn't so bad. It seems to
work OK and has some nice features that XP lacked (some of the Control Panel
features and tools, the Recovery Manager Console, Partition Wizard, etc.).
The IE7 is nice, even if it still tends to crash now and then and doesn't
want to load some pages (I use Firefox as my default and only go to IE7 when
I have to), the WinMail is OK and basically a clone of Outlook Express with
some extras, and the security seems to be better, if a bit annoying at
times. For me, I don't depend on Vista build-in security that much and use
a third party security suite (McAfee) and if you want a more feature filled
mail program, I highly recommend Windows Live Mail (freebie companion to the
Windows Live Messenger and SkyDrive MySpace look alike).

I have dumped the Aero thingy and gone to a classic desktop seem so I have
pretty much turned my Vista HP SP1 into a XP clone with extras. Works Ok
for me. Still, I have to admit that Vista, compared to XP, uses up a lot of
RAM and resources, HD space and it boots slower (even with a cleaned up
startup menu) and in general is slower than XP. But then my new laptop has
a Core 2 Duo at 2.2Mhz which helps compensate for the slower operation. The
1 GB RAM in my old XP laptop had to be 2 GB RAM for my new Vista system and
even then I have already gotten the chips to max it out to 4 GB ram.
]
And while there has been some compatibility problems with third part
programs that ran OK under XP but don't work well with Vista or have minor
bugs (Norton SS 2008, Word Perfect 3X, and some others), those problems are
slowly being resolved and most software publishers are making Vista
compatible programs available now.

So that's the story, for me on XP vs. Vista. Vista's plug and play hardware
is pretty good and the driver update is also a good thing over XP. As for
the slow boot up speed, it's not that slow and beside, with Vista I usually
don't shut down at all (running on wall power all the time) so when I want
to stop computing for the day, I just put her into SLEEP mode so it wakes up
pretty fast.

That help resolve your question? A lot of it is matter of preference and
choice and like XP, it will get better with updates. SP1 did a lot to fix
some problems. IE7 still needs a lot of work. Looking forward to the IE8.
In the mean time I'm happy with Firefox 2.04.
Bob, Still Old, Still Grey, And Still A Woolf

No trees were harmed in the sending of this message and a very large number
of electrons were asked their permission to be terribly inconvenienced. And
a party was thrown for them afterwards for being really cool about it.
Bob's Space - Home Page of the Olde Greywoolf

http://oldegreywoolf.spaces.live.com/
"xfile" <coucou@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:ewPutXbqIHA.4476@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...
I agree with you. However, migrating to an improved version is part of the
progress, if the cost is justifiable even not totally.

Vista is a special case in which it has produced nothing but troubles for
many businesses and consumers including placing special orders for the other
OS and/or exercising the downgrade right.

I understand that this is not an official channel for feedbacks and I have
no interests in participating in their official feedback programs as now MS
is the largest software company not a start-up company. I do however share
some of my thoughts (which may not be correct) in hope that they realize
what are going on.



"C.B." <notreallyc.b.mullen@windowslive.com> wrote in message
news:ewY2fxVqIHA.4928@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...
>
>
> "xfile" <coucou@nospam.com> wrote in message
> news:u3SjWxSqIHA.524@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...
>> Me neither. I just feel disappointed.
>>
>>> For all users Vista presents an arbitrary change in interface and an
>>> arbitrary change in the way to perform familiar tasks, not better or
>>> worse but arbitrarily different.
>>
>> Many people claimed that this is subject to individual's preference, but
>> in this case, it's more than that.
>>
>> For enthusiasts, hobbyists, and people who make a living by
>> teaching/helping other users, this might be a good change, and perhaps, a
>> welcome opportunity to demonstrate their new skills and knowledge. For
>> those who don't care much about anything and everything, this change
>> doesn't affect them as any other things in the world.
>>
>> For ROI-oriented persons and decision makers, this is one of the largest
>> cost elements for adoption, and worst of all, it is almost impossible to
>> accurately estimate the learning cost due to it is on an ongoing basis.
>> This arbitrary change also helps those IT departments that have not had
>> enough user complaints (I wonder how many) to have more than they
>> deserved.
>>
>> An additional benefit is to evoke the user's sleeping consideration sets
>> and ask, if I have to spend so much efforts on learning the new OS, will
>> it be better for me to seek for an alternative solution?
>>
>> In my personal view, this is one of the worst design decisions made for
>> the product. If it helps to reduce the numbers of clicks, scrolls, eye
>> and hand movements, and the use of commands, it would be a totally
>> different story. But it doesn't and based on my own experience and what I
>> have read, it requires even more use of commands.
>>
>> The irony is that Linux is moving toward GUI, and at the same time,
>> Windows is moving toward using more commands.
>>
>> No, I don't hate Vista nor MS; I just don't believe that this is their
>> product.
>>
>>
>>
>> "Nogginsaked" <fac_187@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:43402C14-40A8-4B1B-8F85-1F9CD0B5C1F1@microsoft.com...
>>>I don't hate Vista but except for change for its own sake I cannot
>>>conceive why anyone would change from a stable XP desktop or network to
>>>Vista.
>>> For all users Vista presents an arbitrary change in interface and an
>>> arbitrary change in the way to perform familiar tasks, not better or
>>> worse but arbitrarily different. For all users the UAC is as useless as
>>> an Orange Terror Threat Alert and for all users hardware performance
>>> will be time-by-watching-paint-dry slower under Vista/VSP1.
>>> If you are running a large network with users of dubious skill then
>>> re-educating people who can barely use XP is a nightmare, not to mention
>>> the seemingly unsolvable networking oddities of Vista and ongoing
>>> deficiencies in peripheral drivers.
>>> Large companies, and I run a small one, can do the math: replacing
>>> perfectly functional boxes just so they can run a different OS to
>>> perform the exact same software tasks makes no economic sense, less so
>>> in a recession and doubly less so if you are moving to web based
>>> applications. Why replace boxes just to run a different OS when the
>>> hardware demands of your business software do not require the upgrade?
>>> I suggest that Microsoft push out a new version of XP that has the aero
>>> interface if desired (Windows Live on XP has see through tops), allows
>>> users to retain any interface features they like about Vista (if any)
>>> and call it Vista SP2.
>>
>>
>
>
> I personally don't see a need for anyone, businesses included, to
> migrate to Vista if there is no need to do so. If you're happy with your
> current OS, and migrating to Vista will offer you no advantages other than
> security, why do so?
>
> C.B.
>
>
> --
> It is the responsibility and duty of everyone to help the underprivileged
> and unfortunate among us.
 
Re: I don't hate Vista

Hey!

I didn't say I "liked" Vista! I said I've made it work for me. :) :)

Let's just say I "made it work for me whether it wanted to or not", and let it go at that. XP sucked when it first came out but it got better. That's a pattern with Microsoft since the get-go. They did the same thing with 95, 98 2000 and NT. I REALLY don't like the fact that they publish a far from mature software product every few years and basically use the public (and out time and money) and developmental genny pigs. But that is the ego and mentality that is Microsoft. :)

But it is what it is and there aren't an awful lot of games in town.
Bob, Still Old, Still Grey, And Still A Woolf


No trees were harmed in the sending of this message and a very large number of electrons were asked their permission to be terribly inconvenienced. And a party was thrown for them afterwards for being really cool about it.

Bob's Space - Home Page of the Olde Greywoolf


"xfile" <coucou@nospam.com> wrote in message news:OoOJ5mbqIHA.4376@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl...
Hi,

Thanks for sharing and I'm glad that it works for you :) I never challenged
anyone who likes Vista (or any other product for the matter) and admire
those who have the patience and willingness to go through all those
tweaking. It's just that most regular users are not in the groups of geeks,
techies, and so on.

My two cents though.


"Bob W" <ogwoolf@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:eeBKKhbqIHA.2492@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl...
Well, I have to say that if I had been given a choice back in November when
I got my new laptop whether to get it with XP or Vista, I'd have chosen XP,
hands down. But once you tweak Vista, turn off all the administrative BS
that a single user does not need (yes, the damn UAC!), clean up the start up
programs list, unload all the extra crap, Vista isn't so bad. It seems to
work OK and has some nice features that XP lacked (some of the Control Panel
features and tools, the Recovery Manager Console, Partition Wizard, etc.).
The IE7 is nice, even if it still tends to crash now and then and doesn't
want to load some pages (I use Firefox as my default and only go to IE7 when
I have to), the WinMail is OK and basically a clone of Outlook Express with
some extras, and the security seems to be better, if a bit annoying at
times. For me, I don't depend on Vista build-in security that much and use
a third party security suite (McAfee) and if you want a more feature filled
mail program, I highly recommend Windows Live Mail (freebie companion to the
Windows Live Messenger and SkyDrive MySpace look alike).

I have dumped the Aero thingy and gone to a classic desktop seem so I have
pretty much turned my Vista HP SP1 into a XP clone with extras. Works Ok
for me. Still, I have to admit that Vista, compared to XP, uses up a lot of
RAM and resources, HD space and it boots slower (even with a cleaned up
startup menu) and in general is slower than XP. But then my new laptop has
a Core 2 Duo at 2.2Mhz which helps compensate for the slower operation. The
1 GB RAM in my old XP laptop had to be 2 GB RAM for my new Vista system and
even then I have already gotten the chips to max it out to 4 GB ram.
]
And while there has been some compatibility problems with third part
programs that ran OK under XP but don't work well with Vista or have minor
bugs (Norton SS 2008, Word Perfect 3X, and some others), those problems are
slowly being resolved and most software publishers are making Vista
compatible programs available now.

So that's the story, for me on XP vs. Vista. Vista's plug and play hardware
is pretty good and the driver update is also a good thing over XP. As for
the slow boot up speed, it's not that slow and beside, with Vista I usually
don't shut down at all (running on wall power all the time) so when I want
to stop computing for the day, I just put her into SLEEP mode so it wakes up
pretty fast.

That help resolve your question? A lot of it is matter of preference and
choice and like XP, it will get better with updates. SP1 did a lot to fix
some problems. IE7 still needs a lot of work. Looking forward to the IE8.
In the mean time I'm happy with Firefox 2.04.
Bob, Still Old, Still Grey, And Still A Woolf

No trees were harmed in the sending of this message and a very large number
of electrons were asked their permission to be terribly inconvenienced. And
a party was thrown for them afterwards for being really cool about it.
Bob's Space - Home Page of the Olde Greywoolf

http://oldegreywoolf.spaces.live.com/
"xfile" <coucou@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:ewPutXbqIHA.4476@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...
I agree with you. However, migrating to an improved version is part of the
progress, if the cost is justifiable even not totally.

Vista is a special case in which it has produced nothing but troubles for
many businesses and consumers including placing special orders for the other
OS and/or exercising the downgrade right.

I understand that this is not an official channel for feedbacks and I have
no interests in participating in their official feedback programs as now MS
is the largest software company not a start-up company. I do however share
some of my thoughts (which may not be correct) in hope that they realize
what are going on.



"C.B." <notreallyc.b.mullen@windowslive.com> wrote in message
news:ewY2fxVqIHA.4928@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...
>
>
> "xfile" <coucou@nospam.com> wrote in message
> news:u3SjWxSqIHA.524@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...
>> Me neither. I just feel disappointed.
>>
>>> For all users Vista presents an arbitrary change in interface and an
>>> arbitrary change in the way to perform familiar tasks, not better or
>>> worse but arbitrarily different.
>>
>> Many people claimed that this is subject to individual's preference, but
>> in this case, it's more than that.
>>
>> For enthusiasts, hobbyists, and people who make a living by
>> teaching/helping other users, this might be a good change, and perhaps, a
>> welcome opportunity to demonstrate their new skills and knowledge. For
>> those who don't care much about anything and everything, this change
>> doesn't affect them as any other things in the world.
>>
>> For ROI-oriented persons and decision makers, this is one of the largest
>> cost elements for adoption, and worst of all, it is almost impossible to
>> accurately estimate the learning cost due to it is on an ongoing basis.
>> This arbitrary change also helps those IT departments that have not had
>> enough user complaints (I wonder how many) to have more than they
>> deserved.
>>
>> An additional benefit is to evoke the user's sleeping consideration sets
>> and ask, if I have to spend so much efforts on learning the new OS, will
>> it be better for me to seek for an alternative solution?
>>
>> In my personal view, this is one of the worst design decisions made for
>> the product. If it helps to reduce the numbers of clicks, scrolls, eye
>> and hand movements, and the use of commands, it would be a totally
>> different story. But it doesn't and based on my own experience and what I
>> have read, it requires even more use of commands.
>>
>> The irony is that Linux is moving toward GUI, and at the same time,
>> Windows is moving toward using more commands.
>>
>> No, I don't hate Vista nor MS; I just don't believe that this is their
>> product.
>>
>>
>>
>> "Nogginsaked" <fac_187@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:43402C14-40A8-4B1B-8F85-1F9CD0B5C1F1@microsoft.com...
>>>I don't hate Vista but except for change for its own sake I cannot
>>>conceive why anyone would change from a stable XP desktop or network to
>>>Vista.
>>> For all users Vista presents an arbitrary change in interface and an
>>> arbitrary change in the way to perform familiar tasks, not better or
>>> worse but arbitrarily different. For all users the UAC is as useless as
>>> an Orange Terror Threat Alert and for all users hardware performance
>>> will be time-by-watching-paint-dry slower under Vista/VSP1.
>>> If you are running a large network with users of dubious skill then
>>> re-educating people who can barely use XP is a nightmare, not to mention
>>> the seemingly unsolvable networking oddities of Vista and ongoing
>>> deficiencies in peripheral drivers.
>>> Large companies, and I run a small one, can do the math: replacing
>>> perfectly functional boxes just so they can run a different OS to
>>> perform the exact same software tasks makes no economic sense, less so
>>> in a recession and doubly less so if you are moving to web based
>>> applications. Why replace boxes just to run a different OS when the
>>> hardware demands of your business software do not require the upgrade?
>>> I suggest that Microsoft push out a new version of XP that has the aero
>>> interface if desired (Windows Live on XP has see through tops), allows
>>> users to retain any interface features they like about Vista (if any)
>>> and call it Vista SP2.
>>
>>
>
>
> I personally don't see a need for anyone, businesses included, to
> migrate to Vista if there is no need to do so. If you're happy with your
> current OS, and migrating to Vista will offer you no advantages other than
> security, why do so?
>
> C.B.
>
>
> --
> It is the responsibility and duty of everyone to help the underprivileged
> and unfortunate among us.
 
Re: I don't hate Vista

On Mon, 28 Apr 2008 14:02:37 GMT, kurttrail
<dontemailme@anywhereintheknownuniverse.org> wrote:

>Mike Hall - MVP wrote:
>
>> "Nogginsaked" <fac_187@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:43402C14-40A8-4B1B-8F85-1F9CD0B5C1F1@microsoft.com...
>>>I don't hate Vista but except for change for its own sake I cannot
>>>conceive why anyone would change from a stable XP desktop or network to
>>>Vista.
>>> For all users Vista presents an arbitrary change in interface and an
>>> arbitrary change in the way to perform familiar tasks, not better or
>>> worse but arbitrarily different. For all users the UAC is as useless as
>>> an Orange Terror Threat Alert and for all users hardware performance
>>> will be time-by-watching-paint-dry slower under Vista/VSP1. If you are
>>> running a large network with users of dubious skill then re-educating
>>> people who can barely use XP is a nightmare, not to mention the
>>> seemingly unsolvable networking oddities of Vista and ongoing
>>> deficiencies in peripheral drivers.
>>> Large companies, and I run a small one, can do the math: replacing
>>> perfectly functional boxes just so they can run a different OS to
>>> perform the exact same software tasks makes no economic sense, less so
>>> in a recession and doubly less so if you are moving to web based
>>> applications. Why replace boxes just to run a different OS when the
>>> hardware demands of your business software do not require the upgrade?
>>> I suggest that Microsoft push out a new version of XP that has the aero
>>> interface if desired (Windows Live on XP has see through tops), allows
>>> users to retain any interface features they like about Vista (if any)
>>> and call it Vista SP2.
>>
>>
>> That would be OK id Vista was just XP with Aero, but it isn't..
>
>And that it is too bad for Vista that it ain't just "XP with Aero."
>
>I'd actually like Vista, in that instance.


Why not just use XP with WindowBlinds (or another Window Manager)?


Donald L McDaniel
Please reply to the correct thread and article.
================================================
 
Re: I don't hate Vista

On Sun, 27 Apr 2008 19:37:54 -0500, "HeyBub" <heybub@gmail.com> wrote:

>Nogginsaked wrote:
>> I don't hate Vista but except for change for its own sake I cannot
>> conceive why anyone would change from a stable XP desktop or network
>> to Vista. For all users Vista presents an arbitrary change in interface
>> and an
>> arbitrary change in the way to perform familiar tasks, not better or
>> worse but arbitrarily different. For all users the UAC is as useless
>> as an Orange Terror Threat Alert and for all users hardware
>> performance will be time-by-watching-paint-dry slower under
>> Vista/VSP1.

I haven't noticed any such slow-down on my machine with Vista Ultimate
and SP1. In fact, what I have noticed is a definite improvement over
Vista RTM.

Anyway, WHO appointed YOU spokesman for "All users"? I am part of the
Set of "All users", and you certainly aren't speaking for me.

And I am certainly not afraid of an "arbitrary change in interface..."

If you don't get hung up on the internals of Vista, you will be much
happier, and will be able to notice the definite improvements. As the
old saw goes, "It's easy to miss the forest for the trees."

>> If you are running a large network with users of dubious skill
>> then re-educating people who can barely use XP is a nightmare,

To which I can only respond that if the users of the network have not
been educated enough to use XP easily by now, the IT department has
FALLEN DOWN ON THE JOB!!

Network administrators have had almost 8 years to teach their users to
use XP. If their users STILL can't use XP, something is wrong with
either the users, or (God forbid!) the IT staff itself. Knowing that
folks, for the most part, are usually teachable, if they STILL have
difficulty with XP, the Network staff are the ones who've failed.

Perhaps Network Admins have been reading BOFH (and taking it to heart)
a little too closely all these years, rather than teaching their users
to use ENJOY using computers. Once they ENJOY them, they will LEARN
to use XP swiftly.

>> not to mention the seemingly unsolvable networking oddities of Vista and
>> ongoing deficiencies in peripheral drivers.
>> Large companies, and I run a small one, can do the math: replacing
>> perfectly functional boxes just so they can run a different OS to
>> perform the exact same software tasks makes no economic sense, less
>> so in a recession and doubly less so if you are moving to web based
>> applications. Why replace boxes just to run a different OS when the
>> hardware demands of your business software do not require the upgrade?
>> I suggest that Microsoft push out a new version of XP that has the
>> aero interface if desired (Windows Live on XP has see through tops),
>> allows users to retain any interface features they like about Vista
>> (if any) and call it Vista SP2.
>
>YOU may not notice an improvement, but WE will in that it's harder for your
>machines to get infected with trojans and the like.
>
>Likewise, we WE (the rest of the planet) move to Vista, YOU will reap the
>benefits of a safer computing experience.

I doubt it. The malware writers will just get smarter. We are always
going to have to depend on ourselves alone to keep our machines safe.

The responsibility for our security rests first and foremost in our
own hands. It always has, and always will.

And I am not so sure I WANT anyone to take over responsibility for the
security of my machine. Because those who ENJOY taking over others'
responsibilities have a fatal personality flaw: They will ALWAYS want
MORE. 'Nuff said.

>It's time to be a good steward of the earth's resources: Implement Vista and
>encourage others to do the same and don't kill otters for no reason.
>

I heartily agree with that sentiment.


Donald L McDaniel
Please reply to the correct thread and article.
================================================
 
Re: I don't hate Vista

On Tue, 29 Apr 2008 00:28:39 -0700, Donald L McDaniel
<orthocross@invalid.invalid.com> wrote:

>Why not just use XP with WindowBlinds (or another Window Manager)?

That was the exact conclusion I came to. Unfortunately Window Blinds
doesn't like XP x64 so much yet.

JD
 
Re: I don't hate Vista

On Tue, 29 Apr 2008 04:09:38 -0500, John <use_net@usenet.com> wrote:

>On Tue, 29 Apr 2008 00:28:39 -0700, Donald L McDaniel
><orthocross@invalid.invalid.com> wrote:
>
>>Why not just use XP with WindowBlinds (or another Window Manager)?
>
>That was the exact conclusion I came to. Unfortunately Window Blinds
>doesn't like XP x64 so much yet.

Evidently they've addressed this in the updated version.

http://forums.wincustomize.com/164099/page/4

JD
 
Re: I don't hate Vista


John;697552 Wrote:
> On Tue, 29 Apr 2008 04:09:38 -0500, John <use_net@xxxxxx> wrote:
> > > >
> > >On Tue, 29 Apr 2008 00:28:39 -0700, Donald L McDaniel
> > ><orthocross@xxxxxx> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >That was the exact conclusion I came to. Unfortunately Window Blinds
> > >doesn't like XP x64 so much yet. > > Evidently they've addressed this in the updated version.
>
> 'WindowBlinds 6.0 & XP x64 Support » Forum Post by telackey'
> (http://forums.wincustomize.com/164099/page/4)
>
> JD

Using WindowsBlinds makes up for a wannabe Vista user :p


--
hitu

DELL XPS420
 
Re: I don't hate Vista

Donald L McDaniel wrote:

> Why not just use XP with WindowBlinds (or another Window Manager)?

Hell, have you played with Compiz-Fusion in Linux? If you are into eye
candy, then Compiz-Fusion is the bomb.

And my secondary computer is running XP quite nicely, thanks.

--
Peace!
Kurt
Former Self-anointed Moderator
microscum.pubic.windowsexp.gonorrhea
"Produkt-Aktivierung macht frei!"
 
Re: I don't hate Vista

"hitu" <guest@unknown-email.com> wrote in message
news:3662f6cb16e412faeaf4018f35ff6c41@nntp-gateway.com...
>
> John;697552 Wrote:
>> On Tue, 29 Apr 2008 04:09:38 -0500, John <use_net@xxxxxx> wrote:
>> > > >
>> > >On Tue, 29 Apr 2008 00:28:39 -0700, Donald L McDaniel
>> > ><orthocross@xxxxxx> wrote:
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >That was the exact conclusion I came to. Unfortunately Window Blinds
>> > >doesn't like XP x64 so much yet. > > Evidently they've addressed this
>> > >in the updated version.
>>
>> 'WindowBlinds 6.0 & XP x64 Support » Forum Post by telackey'
>> (http://forums.wincustomize.com/164099/page/4)
>>
>> JD
>
> Using WindowsBlinds makes up for a wannabe Vista user :p
>
>
> --
> hitu
>
> DELL XPS420


There are a one or two utilities which can make XP look like Vista, but who
wants a look-a-like?

--
Mike Hall - MVP
How to construct a good post..
http://dts-l.com/goodpost.htm
How to use the Microsoft Product Support Newsgroups..
http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?pr=newswhelp&style=toc
Mike's Window - My Blog..
http://msmvps.com/blogs/mikehall/default.aspx
 
Re: I don't hate Vista

On Mon, 28 Apr 2008 22:22:53 -0700, Frank <fab@notspam.com> wrote:

>Buddha wrote:
>
>> The willingness demonstrated by users like you to accept a defective
>> product
>> is the reason Bill Gates and his merry men do things the way they do.
>>
>> If you bought a new car and GM or Ford said "We know the brakes don't work
>> and neither does reverse, but hang in there and we'll eventually issue
>> fixes
>> for those problems", how long would you stand for it? Why should M$ be
>> held
>> to a lower standard by consumers than any other provider of any other
>> product?
>>
>> Buddha
>
>Did you write that diatribe all by yourself bubba?
>Frank

Say Frank, I was wondering, do you take off and dispose of your soiled
pampers by yourself or do you paid someone to do it for you?
 
Re: I don't hate Vista

On Tue, 29 Apr 2008 09:44:40 -0400, "Mike Hall - MVP"
<mikehall@remove_mvps.com> wrote:

>There are a one or two utilities which can make XP look like Vista, but who
>wants a look-a-like?

Is this a loaded question ?

JD
 
Re: I don't hate Vista

On Tue, 29 Apr 2008 07:51:16 -0500, hitu <guest@unknown-email.com>
wrote:

>
>Using WindowsBlinds makes up for a wannabe Vista user :p

Heck I like the Vista interface. Sleek. But it's all of the bloat and
incompatibilities that are annoying.

JD

XPx64 on 4GB of RAM and things are FLYIN' !!!!
 

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